Harrington Genome, and the Mesans

PeterZ wrote:Honor isn't just descended from people with the Meyerdahl mods, but from the Meyerdahl Beta mods. It was also mentioned in text that Allison Harrington knows about all the Harrington mods. This argues that the Beta mods were a Star Line genotype. What we don't know is just how well known the Beta mods truly were. I suspect that the Hartington Alpha Line started with the Meyerdahl Beta modes and were tweaked for emotional stability to offset their aggression. Hence just how attractive Stephanie was to Lioheart.

Allison Harrington has the Harrington genotype mapped to a fare thee well. She knows just where the Harringtons diverged from the Beta mods. Odds are very high Allison has also noticed some similarities in the Harrington gene map to some gene sequences from genetic slaves she has seen. Now, that the Mesan Alignment has been revealed, Allison has to start connecting the dots. By the time Raoul begins the next arc, Allison and the rest of the Benton-Ramierez y Chous will have a solid set of Star Line gene sequences isolated. I further suspect Allison will tell her daughter about her Star Line connections.

Galactic Sapper wrote:This seems like it could be dangerous if taken too far. Especially in the Old Star Kingdom and Beowulf, having it come out that particular people are some sort of "genetic sleeper agents" could lead to severe bigotry and persecution - even if treecats are able to clear the person of any official suspicion of being connected to the MAlignment, that doesn't clear them of such suspicions being held by the general public.

Allison Harrington is the LAST person to use gene groupings as some sort of accusation of complicity with the MAlign. My point is that those gene groupings can be isolated by cross referencing groupings from genetic slaves, gen groupings from people from Mesa and groupings of Beowulf designed modifications. Those groupings won't be definitive in identifying MAlign members, but will be useful in identifying MAlign areas of influence. That will narrow the search for the MAlign nicely. Those areas are a good place to start.

Allison Harrington knows about all the Harrington mods, of course she does- she is a top geneticist from a family of, literaly, geneticists with interstellar reputations. If she though there was anything odd about Honor's (or Alfred's) genetics, you can be sure that she would have poked into it a long time ago. Beowulf and Manticore have had the ability to do genetic fixes for dangerous mutation or known precursor genes for all sorts of genetic problems for at least a century.

Would she have had a reason to look back at Honor's genetics after the Alignment is unmasked as having the nanite assassons and being responsible to Genetic Slavery- probably not. Meyerdahl Beta does NOT imply that this is a Star Line, just that this was a 2nd variation on the original implemented Meyerdahl modifications.
From my recollection, or at least inference, from the reading, the Meyerdahl modifications were well know and documented, at least within the community of Meyerdahl and one would have to suppose that Beowulf was aware of them. They don't fall under the prohibited thing of the Beowulf code....Allison would have taken not of that but they were also things that were done to at least the Harrington side of the family back before Stephany was born- quite probably her mother's side as well....that's the planet they were living on and where Stephany was born.

As far as building a database of Alignmenet Star Line genetics, someone would 1st need to get samples from at least ONE identified member of any of the Star Lines? How do you know? I doubt very much that the leadership of the initial RF Systems will be advertising that they are Star Line members, and same for the people we have seen in the Mannerheim SDF. That there are family members from Star Lines still on Mesa is clear, Jack McBrides mother and sisters (and families) at least are still alive (not mentioned as dead) and----how can you be sure about what would clearly mark any given Line withing the Star Lines because the Long Range Planning Board quite literally manages the genetics of the children so you (and their parents) have no true knowlege of everything that was done to the embryos that become their children. Then there is all that experimentation (with and without using the genetic slaves as the subjects) where Manpower as well as the Alignment has been slicing and dicing genes for centuries to customize and try variations in their experimentation.
Good luck with that.

Somehow I don't think Honor Harrington is going to have somebody flip a gene switch within her genetics and become an Alignment Star Line Soldier. Besides, the nanotech assassins are really really tightly tailored and limited in what they can accomplish. Remember, these things have to be customised from samples and then reintroduced into the original source. This is NOT something that is going to pass from generation to generation (look at the definition and explination of meiosis for an overview) as that would almost surly scramble any such nanite if it was incerting itself into the sex cell production of it's target host.
Ok, the Meyerdahl modifications were described "locked" (they would pass from generation to generation and apparently were designed to be a dominant trait) but these are at a very basic level and how do you code the Alignment orientation into genetics? Albrect's and his clone sons were all educated and trained in the full immersion Alignment philosophy with it's own compleat support system.
They are smart, even brilliant and drive....but you are talking about something a bit more complex than Hargard showing up to Harry Potter on his 11th birthday and telling him: Your a Wizard, Harry. Big smile.

Finding the Mesan Star Lines is not difficult at all. It's very easy. As soon as Tenth and Second Fleets arrived in Mesa and started looking for the Mesan Alignment, they found it. Lots of people came forward saying they were part of the Alignment. They admitted to having their genes tinkered with. In fact, they described the Alignment as an organisation dedicated to improving their own genetic make-up, only they had to do it in secret because of the backlash that they knew the Galaxy would give them. They also said they were not going to impose on anyone else -- and for all they knew, they wouldn't.

The LRPB was also not a secret organisation. The Simões plight was also known to quite a few people (not publicised, but not top secret either). When Herlander turned up in Haven and Manticore, having threatened the LRPB was used against him to discredit him.

Now, that doesn't mean the Mesan Alpha-Plus and Alpha-Über-Plus lines (Detweiler) are on Mesa any more. Their most successful manipulations are probably secret.

Brigade XO wrote:As far as building a database of Alignmenet Star Line genetics, someone would 1st need to get samples from at least ONE identified member of any of the Star Lines? How do you know?

It's limited so far, but especially if the Ghost Hunters can also get involved they could use all of the people who dropped dead as a baseline. Several in Chicago, more in the Manticore government, Beowulf, the two on Smoking Frog - most everyone we've seen with the suicide nano have also been star lines. The biggest problem would be to get all the DNA samples together to run a comparison.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Finding the Mesan Star Lines is not difficult at all. It's very easy. As soon as Tenth and Second Fleets arrived in Mesa and started looking for the Mesan Alignment, they found it. Lots of people came forward saying they were part of the Alignment. They admitted to having their genes tinkered with. In fact, they described the Alignment as an organisation dedicated to improving their own genetic make-up, only they had to do it in secret because of the backlash that they knew the Galaxy would give them. They also said they were not going to impose on anyone else -- and for all they knew, they wouldn't.

Those "alignment" members are also almost certainly NOT part of the actual MAlignment. They're decoys intended to be found, and putting real members in with the decoys would run an unnecessary risk of the real members being found.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The LRPB was also not a secret organisation. The Simões plight was also known to quite a few people (not publicised, but not top secret either). When Herlander turned up in Haven and Manticore, having threatened the LRPB was used against him to discredit him.

The LRPB was most definitely a secret organization but it was covered under other, legitimate organizations. Herlander was not accused of threatening the LRPB, he was accused of threatening the head of the LRPB in her "open" persona as the head of genetic research at a particular medical facility.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Finding the Mesan Star Lines is not difficult at all. It's very easy. As soon as Tenth and Second Fleets arrived in Mesa and started looking for the Mesan Alignment, they found it. Lots of people came forward saying they were part of the Alignment. They admitted to having their genes tinkered with. In fact, they described the Alignment as an organisation dedicated to improving their own genetic make-up, only they had to do it in secret because of the backlash that they knew the Galaxy would give them. They also said they were not going to impose on anyone else -- and for all they knew, they wouldn't.

Those "alignment" members are also almost certainly NOT part of the actual MAlignment. They're decoys intended to be found, and putting real members in with the decoys would run an unnecessary risk of the real members being found.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The LRPB was also not a secret organisation. The Simões plight was also known to quite a few people (not publicised, but not top secret either). When Herlander turned up in Haven and Manticore, having threatened the LRPB was used against him to discredit him.

The LRPB was most definitely a secret organization but it was covered under other, legitimate organizations. Herlander was not accused of threatening the LRPB, he was accused of threatening the head of the LRPB in her "open" persona as the head of genetic research at a particular medical facility.

I disagree, somewhat. Those members of the alignment that were found were alignment members, but of the outer onion. Same with the LRPB as you described: there was a secret organisation with secret plans inside the outer, legitimate one. But you are probably right that the name "Long Range Planning Board" wasn't known.

But just take the rest of the McBrides: they are alpha lines. They probably know very well that they've been genetically-manipulated for generations. They just aren't part of the inner onion like Jack and Zach were (and Jack was much deeper than Zach).

You can't move everyone who's a first- or second-generation descendant of an alpha line to Darius. More to the point: they didn't try. So there'll be a lot of alpha lines and probably even more beta and gamma to be found on Mesa.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I disagree, somewhat. Those members of the alignment that were found were alignment members, but of the outer onion.

Almost certainly not. The point was to create a decoy group entirely separate from the actual onion with no traceable ties between them.

But just take the rest of the McBrides: they are alpha lines. They probably know very well that they've been genetically-manipulated for generations. They just aren't part of the inner onion like Jack and Zach were (and Jack was much deeper than Zach).

I hate to break it to you, but the McBrides are dead. All of them but Zach, anyway. They weren't useful enough to move but knew entirely too much to be permitted to live. Everyone who even knew the onion existed was killed or evacuated, or left to die when their nanites timed out. In their particular case, even if they wouldn't have been purged for knowing about the onion in general the Malignment would have killed them in particular because the GA knew about Jack and couldn't risk them being questioned. Zach may not have worked through it far enough to realize that quite yet, but they're gone.

You can't move everyone who's a first- or second-generation descendant of an alpha line to Darius. More to the point: they didn't try. So there'll be a lot of alpha lines and probably even more beta and gamma to be found on Mesa.

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Most of them are radioactive ash at this point. You're right, they couldn't move them all off and didn't try to. That doesn't mean they're still on Mesa in a condition to be questioned.

Galactic Sapper wrote:I hate to break it to you, but the McBrides are dead. All of them but Zach, anyway. They weren't useful enough to move but knew entirely too much to be permitted to live. Everyone who even knew the onion existed was killed or evacuated, or left to die when their nanites timed out. In their particular case, even if they wouldn't have been purged for knowing about the onion in general the Malignment would have killed them in particular because the GA knew about Jack and couldn't risk them being questioned. Zach may not have worked through it far enough to realize that quite yet, but they're gone.

I thought the bomb meant to kill them didn't accomplish that.

And I maintain that there were simply too many descendants of alpha lines to kill all with bombs. Even the targeted people miss shuttle connections, have last minute change of plans, etc., so they may not have been where they were expected to. So, no, I maintain that there are lots of alpha lines to be found, not decoys.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I thought the bomb meant to kill them didn't accomplish that.

And I maintain that there were simply too many descendants of alpha lines to kill all with bombs. Even the targeted people miss shuttle connections, have last minute change of plans, etc., so they may not have been where they were expected to. So, no, I maintain that there are lots of alpha lines to be found, not decoys.

I don't recall any text reference for their survival.

As for star lines, nearly the entire population of them was located on Darius to begin with and Alignment Security kept track of those on Mesa. There are undoubtably a few security agents left tracking down loose ends but none that would be willing to come forward and identify themselves as Alignment. There was a reason that Alignment members were encouraged not to have deep connections or families - fewer loose ends to clean up if and when they had to be evacuated.

Galactic Sapper wrote:As for star lines, nearly the entire population of them was located on Darius to begin with and Alignment Security kept track of those on Mesa. There are undoubtably a few security agents left tracking down loose ends but none that would be willing to come forward and identify themselves as Alignment. There was a reason that Alignment members were encouraged not to have deep connections or families - fewer loose ends to clean up if and when they had to be evacuated.

I don't think the entire star lines were relocated. Only the inner layers of the onion. Anyone who isn't in the inner layer would have resisted relocation in the first place. Eliminating those en-masse is difficult for the reasons I stated earlier. Allowing GAULs to remain behind to perform hit jobs is also a security risk, since they may be intercepted.

Yes, I think this is right - only those who had some degree of knowledge about the "onion" were killed, with enough collateral damage to make things appear random, or the result of a terrorist attack/act of war. Those who had no knowledge of the onion, like the McBrydes, were not killed without reason.

I'm also assuming that anyone who is a full Mesan citizen belongs to a star line.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think the entire star lines were relocated. Only the inner layers of the onion. Anyone who isn't in the inner layer would have resisted relocation in the first place. Eliminating those en-masse is difficult for the reasons I stated earlier. Allowing GAULs to remain behind to perform hit jobs is also a security risk, since they may be intercepted.