capturing Alignment agents

The ghost hunters have been able to eliminate 5 or 6 high ranking Alignment agents in the SLN Admiralty. They have also identified Bolton as a control. The question is how to capture alignment agents without triggering their self destruct nano tech. We know that the ghost hunters were able to, at least, posthumously find the "unknown" nanotech that caused the dead Alignment agents' brain aneurisms. What could Beowulf medical forensics do with that data l wonder?

Would it be possible to scam Bolton [think mission impossible] in order to render her unconscious prior to capture. Then perhaps they can filter the nanites from her system with 40th century dialysis while she is incapacitated. At the very least, they should be able to hook her up to diagonistic machines and monitor her vitals as she awakens from her slumber. This could help to establish a baseline on how the (virus based) nanites work, how swiftly they work and how they destroy themselves after accomplishing their deadly task. Perhaps they can even determine how to bamboozle the little beasties and encourage them to self destruct although the host isn't dead yet.

One more thing, the nannite assassins seem to be different (likely less capable or flexible) from the Alignment agents' nanites. [I wonder if dr. Simones of Mesa has nannites that could be harvested?] The assasins cause their hosts to perform a series of physical activities that get the hosts dead; whereas the agents nanites (from the descriptions in the books) seem to incorporate an act of will, although likely also based on a conditional trigger, that causes an internal self destruct. Case in point, the nanites made Adimiral Rajampet eat his gun - against his will, but if they had caused an aneurism instead, there would have been nothing to suggest foul play to the Manties or the ghost hunters. Rajampet was much too narcissistic to take his own life and the manner of his death caused smart people to look closely at what was going on because of the anomaly. So why do something to cause attention to be drawn to you unnecessarily?

Of course the Detweiler brothers didnt consider this when they felt it would be a lovely idea to murder 43M Beowulf civilians as a reprisal for the conditions that lead to their father's suicide. Beowulf didnt even have any representation in Admiral Gold Peak's fleet when they visited Mesa, I think they were just bullies lashing out at the first victim they could reach (since they were already planning opps against Beowulf. Thats much baaad karma coming their way! We are all, Im sure we're all anxiously waiting to see them get theirs, cause payback is a vicious female dog.

bert953 wrote:The ghost hunters have been able to eliminate 5 or 6 high ranking Alignment agents in the SLN Admiralty. They have also identified Bolton as a control. The question is how to capture alignment agents without triggering their self destruct nano tech. We know that the ghost hunters were able to, at least, posthumously find the "unknown" nanotech that caused the dead Alignment agents' brain aneurisms. What could Beowulf medical forensics do with that data l wonder?

Would it be possible to scam Bolton [think mission impossible] in order to render her unconscious prior to capture. Then perhaps they can filter the nanites from her system with 40th century dialysis while she is incapacitated. At the very least, they should be able to hook her up to diagonistic machines and monitor her vitals as she awakens from her slumber. This could help to establish a baseline on how the (virus based) nanites work, how swiftly they work and how they destroy themselves after accomplishing their deadly task. Perhaps they can even determine how to bamboozle the little beasties and encourage them to self destruct although the host isn't dead yet.

One more thing, the nannite assassins seem to be different (likely less capable or flexible) from the Alignment agents' nanites. [I wonder if dr. Simones of Mesa has nannites that could be harvested?] The assasins cause their hosts to perform a series of physical activities that get the hosts dead; whereas the agents nanites (from the descriptions in the books) seem to incorporate an act of will, although likely also based on a conditional trigger, that causes an internal self destruct. Case in point, the nanites made Adimiral Rajampet eat his gun - against his will, but if they had caused an aneurism instead, there would have been nothing to suggest foul play to the Manties or the ghost hunters. Rajampet was much too narcissistic to take his own life and the manner of his death caused smart people to look closely at what was going on because of the anomaly. So why do something to cause attention to be drawn to you unnecessarily?

Of course the Detweiler brothers didnt consider this when they felt it would be a lovely idea to murder 43M Beowulf civilians as a reprisal for the conditions that lead to their father's suicide. Beowulf didnt even have any representation in Admiral Gold Peak's fleet when they visited Mesa, I think they were just bullies lashing out at the first victim they could reach (since they were already planning opps against Beowulf. Thats much baaad karma coming their way! We are all, Im sure we're all anxiously waiting to see them get theirs, cause payback is a vicious female dog.

If nothing else, the Detweilers demonstrated that they WILL kill populated space stations, with no regard whatsoever for human life. Someone (meaning many someones) will put the pieces together. The New Tuscany Explosion was used to trigger Byng into starting the war by attacking RMN destroyers in parking orbit. Then, all 3 of the Manticorian Core stations were attacked by a Stealth opponent. The unknown forces prompt the SLN into attacks on SL member's and allies which might shift their allegiance to Manticore, and destroy their orbital infrastructure, and threatening human lives. Then after the RMN and RHN forces "peacefully" take the Mesan system, a majority of the Mesan space infrastructure and some random ground installations are destroyed by untraced nukes. And Finally, Beowulf's defence satelites are destroyed by a stealth opponent (working in coordination with an SLN assault), then the Detweilers start blowing up the major Beowulf stations.

All the above are stealth attacks or special operations, and end in blowing up habitation space stations. What other instances are there for someone destroying populated stations in modern Honorverse History? The RMN and RHN/PRN took careful steps through 15 years of war NOT to target habitats - yes people got killed when freight stations, or legitimate military bases were targeted, but Habitats were ALWAYS off limits by all combatants.

Many people are going to see the pattern. Beowulf just made the Detweilers pariahs.

I don't think you need a mission-impossible level scam to capture an alignment agent. Hypoxia sneaks up on you unless you've been specifically trained to recognize it. All it takes is a low-oxygen environment--any place you can control the air supply you can do it. Modifying a room isn't going to be that hard.

You arrange for them to enter an either empty room (restroom facilities??) or a room with your guy who has a tube releasing oxygen near his face so he isn't knocked out. So long as they have to function in society this shouldn't be too hard to arrange.

Once they're out you quickly set up for anesthesia and keep them under. Whether you can defeat the nanites is another matter--given how fast it works I suspect they are in the brain, not something you can simply filter out.

As for the agent nannites vs the assassination ones--I don't think an inexplicable "natural causes" death will work at their level. The medical examiner will not know why they died but will think there's something very fishy about it. A suicide, however, will at worst look like murder, not nannite assassination and thus will cause fewer questions to be asked.

The agents have to have the internal version because it can work no matter what the circumstances.

I don't think you can capture an Alignment agent and interrogate. Capture, yes, but like all the other captured or identified agents, they'll die soon after.

Capturing is difficult enough without them knowing they're in the process of being captured. The nanites can detect onset hypoxia and other paralysing agents and combat them. If they can't combat, they could terminate the agent before any information is divulged.

Even if you could capture the agent without killing them -- say, by actually convincing them to come -- you have the problem of how to flush the nanites. Those can probably tell when their concentration is getting low, detecting they're being filtered out or destroyed. Then they terminate the agent when the concentration reaches a certain threshold.

And you don't have time to create a fast-acting agent or to hack the nanites, at least for high-level agents. Those are also time-bombs: if they don't get reset within a certain period, they trigger the agent's death too.

So, no, I don't think they'll capture any agents alive. The worst would be someone whose nanites are defective, but it's highly unlikely and that particular luck has already happened once. Instead, they'll have to track back through forensic means.

What is with good old EMP?

Send an strong EMP into the room with the agent and destroy every tec with the EMP, Nanites included. Even if EMP doesn´t work, your specialist know how to handle nanites.

The main problem is, that the Alignment Nanites are very advanced, so, normal treatments to destroy them maybe doesn´t work.

wavelength. Nanites are small, so their receiving area is small. And short wavelengths are typically absorbed by water in the body.

kzt wrote:wavelength. Nanites are small, so their receiving area is small. And short wavelengths are typically absorbed by water in the body.

Or are strong enough that would fry you anyway.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think you can capture an Alignment agent and interrogate. Capture, yes, but like all the other captured or identified agents, they'll die soon after.

Capturing is difficult enough without them knowing they're in the process of being captured. The nanites can detect onset hypoxia and other paralysing agents and combat them. If they can't combat, they could terminate the agent before any information is divulged.

While I could see the nanites triggering over likely hostile drugs I don't think they will terminate over hypoxia or ordinary anesthesia. While the MAlign isn't going to care too much about dead agents every time the nanites activate it's a risk to them. We have already seen this, their network on Earth got basically wiped out because the nanite activations tipped off the other side.

Even if you could capture the agent without killing them -- say, by actually convincing them to come -- you have the problem of how to flush the nanites. Those can probably tell when their concentration is getting low, detecting they're being filtered out or destroyed. Then they terminate the agent when the concentration reaches a certain threshold.

Disagree--that means communications and that's a substantial risk of exposure.

And you don't have time to create a fast-acting agent or to hack the nanites, at least for high-level agents. Those are also time-bombs: if they don't get reset within a certain period, they trigger the agent's death too.

But the trigger period is obviously reasonably long.

So, no, I don't think they'll capture any agents alive. The worst would be someone whose nanites are defective, but it's highly unlikely and that particular luck has already happened once. Instead, they'll have to track back through forensic means.

We haven't had anyone with defective nanites. We have someone the MAlign didn't realize didn't have nanites because the facility got nuked. An unusual example of the fog of war.

Loren Pechtel wrote:While I could see the nanites triggering over likely hostile drugs I don't think they will terminate over hypoxia or ordinary anesthesia. While the MAlign isn't going to care too much about dead agents every time the nanites activate it's a risk to them. We have already seen this, their network on Earth got basically wiped out because the nanite activations tipped off the other side.

That's an argument for my point: their nanites err on the side of "caution". If those nanites also do give you good health (as Firebrand was told), then there should be little reason for agents to go to hospitals and be subject to anaesthesia. Seeing as we have agents dropping dead just for asking a question, I wouldn't put past the MAlign high echelons to trigger on other reasons too.

Even if you could capture the agent without killing them -- say, by actually convincing them to come -- you have the problem of how to flush the nanites. Those can probably tell when their concentration is getting low, detecting they're being filtered out or destroyed. Then they terminate the agent when the concentration reaches a certain threshold.

Disagree--that means communications and that's a substantial risk of exposure.

I think communication is already in the loop here. How are the nanites determining that certain subjects were brought up? And how did the agents in Smoking Frog trigger the nanites? If there weren't any communication, then how would individual nanites know to terminate the host?

Note that communication doesn't need to be electromagnetic for this. It can be simply the concentration of a specific compound in the bloodstream.

But the trigger period is obviously reasonably long.

True, but also reasonably short to prevent this exact kind of thing. It probably depends on where the agent is located: someone like Firebrand who was supposed to operate in the backwaters of nowhere probably could remain in the field for 2 or 3 years without contact with a Mesan clinic. The operatives on Earth probably visited Mesan clinics (suitably disguised) far more frequently.

We haven't had anyone with defective nanites. We have someone the MAlign didn't realize didn't have nanites because the facility got nuked. An unusual example of the fog of war.

Right, I was thinking of Firebrand. His situation was close enough that I considered it the first instance of the particular lightning. For it to fall in the same place a second time it's highly unlikely.

The MAlign didn't use to make this type of mistakes. They were highly methodical, thinking things through and making plans. They didn't start reacting to events outside of their planning until recently. And that's when they started making mistakes. So it's possible they made more -- I do expect that Houdini did not erase all tracks, for example.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Right, I was thinking of Firebrand. His situation was close enough that I considered it the first instance of the particular lightning. For it to fall in the same place a second time it's highly unlikely.

The MAlign didn't use to make this type of mistakes. They were highly methodical, thinking things through and making plans. They didn't start reacting to events outside of their planning until recently. And that's when they started making mistakes. So it's possible they made more -- I do expect that Houdini did not erase all tracks, for example.

I would think there are 2 or more trigger levels necessary to trigger the nanites. Otherwise, people would be dropping dead on first dates, job interviews, near car collisions in bad weather, and the like over extreme stress and nervousness. There has to be separate triggers for stress, and maybe a memory location that have to happen simultaneously to trigger the nanites.