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The big problem of late Honorverse

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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:26 pm

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kzt wrote:Yup, home fleet not shooting is one of the massive plot hammers David used to produce the outcome he wanted easily. Note how they mention pods and nobody on the staff suggests they should do something?

Indeed. And the massive missile swarm they fire at Home Fleet is just slightly bigger per-ship than was used at Salon. If the Strategy Board really didn't see an attack like Beatrice coming there was some serious negligence going on. Hell, they could have farmed it out to Harrington and company as a training exercise.

This is what we think they might have. Plan a worst-case attack on the home system with that so we can send it to Home Fleet as a training exercise.

Especially in the down time after Salon, they could have been putting some serious brain storming into possible attack scenarios.

Just off the top of my head, a low-risk moderate reward attack could have dropped the equivalent of Fifth Fleet at the terminus where Diamato's BC squadrons dropped in, a bit outside MDM range. Give an all-bands broadcast for civilian shipping to get clear and the stations to evacuate, and then start popping huge launches at the forts and junction infrastructure. Or if they detect any of Third Fleet coming through, swarms of missiles at the arrival lane to surprise the newest ships coming in from Trevor's Star.

The forts are tougher than anything else in space, but hitting them with 100k+ launches of Havenite missiles (as opposed to crappy SLN ones) are going to get through in significant numbers.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Maldorian   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:55 pm

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Well, of course its my IMHO, but for me all Honorverse books after the "At All Costs" became... much more boring. The best part of the earlier novels - the complex, fascinating, interesting combat sequences, in which heroes done their very best to achieve (sometimes, very costly) victory - they basically disappeared completely. Basically every major battle became "good guys punch the button - bad guys destroyed in quantities - good guys feel sorry about having to kill so many for about five minutes".

The reason is "Apollo" system. To put it simply - it is too good. It is so good, that it basically eliminated all suspense from the combat sequences; there is no need for any strategy, tactics, inventiveness.

I must point out, that RFC could easily avoid such problem - simply by making the "Apollo" unreliable. And it would make perfect sense, actually. It is a revolutionary new system, designed during the time of severe military funding cuts, and then rushed into deployment. Historical experience generally tell us that such solutions led to... less than ideal success rate. Especially for the system that tend to break the basic physic laws in hard way (seriously, guys, "Apollo" system is based on combining somehow three different concepts of time - the dilated onboard time on the ship, the dilated onboard time on the missile, and some weird "absolute time" of FTL carrier wave. Not to mention, it breaks causality, i.e. it is working as time machine).

By making "Apollo" a capricious, unreliable systems, prone to malfunction, software and hardware bugs, RFC, frankly, could maintain the descent level of suspense and make us actually worry about the characters - because it would be always possible that they would NOT be able to just annihilate the enemy, and may be forced to fight it old-fashioned way. It wouldn't matter even if they still won the absolute majority of battles by Appolinating :D the enemy: if even ONE battle were lost because "Apollo" was unable to correctly synchronize the compensation of time dilation (or broke causality and collapse on itself :lol: ), it would still prove that it may happens again. And we would have a reason to actually worry about our beloved heroes and read the combat sequences, instead of just "meh, they pushed the buttons again and Appolinated everybody with no losses... I just skip it".

Again, it is all my IMHO. But unless the reliability of "Apollo" system would be seriously compromised in the future (or retconned in the past, by adding, for example, some side battle, in which RMN was pounded due to system jinx) - I'm afraid, that one of the best parts of the series would be completely reduced to nothingness.


I think the best solution would be a damn good software upgrade for the solarian Halo system for the exsiting ships. If the solarians had better elektronic countermeasures, Apollo and the mantie E.warfare toys wouldn´t be so dangerous.

I think the fastest way to make battles more interesting would be, if the solarians get their hands on one of the SYstemSec ships that escaped Haven and copy them with solarian tec. That would be a fast way to close the massive technological gap between manticore and the solarians.

The people in the Solarian Navy maybe are dumb as bricks, but that don´t say, that there isn´t someone from a solarian weapons manufactor that observed the war to get impressions for new products. They change the way of fighting in the war from weakening with missles and finish them off with Grasers to send so much missles that the enemy don´t survive the first hit. Maybe at the beginning it would be only some data analysis and simulations, but after the first solarian losses, company leaders shouls smell blood in the water. The solarian looses because of outdated tecnology. If you can offer ships that can keep up with the enemy, your custumers will give you orders for the next century, if not, they will buy somewhere else. Yes, you can try the old corrupt way and try to get contracts with a little help of money in the right pockets, but in a time were the abilities of solarian warships are really needed, it can backfire fast and smart weapon buyer in the solarian militairies know that. So, in long therm, a solarian warship builder can only survive with good products. Maybe there are some goodies in the databases of solarian companies that was till now classified as "too expensive toys" or "not really needed", but with a real opponent it would get back into consideration.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:02 pm

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Dilandu wrote:Please! This battle was just an enormous amount of facepalms, with ideas like stealth drones hitting ships and 88 battlecruisers destroyed by three Manticoran ships. And all this after spending several previous books explaining that while SLN capital ships are crap, their lighter units are much more comparable with Monties ones.


That was never the case. All SLN ships were equivalent to Manticoran ships 30-50 years older, regardless of type. You must be confusing the ability of the SLN skippers: the Battle Fleet was a paper tiger and hadn't exercised, much less deployed together, in centuries. It had no doctrine and all the improvements that happened (Fleet 2000) were just make up on the pig. In contrast, the Frontier Fleet was actually a capable naval force and did know how to fight.

But their hardware was woefully outmatched by GA hardware.

kzt wrote:Can you show me where, in the field, ANYONE was concerned with ammunition, or running out of recon drones, or node wear? Or really any indication that there were now huge logistics issues that hadn't been in place previously?

Becuase I can't, after the discussion with the Queen, remember anyone being at all concerned that they have a very limited amount of anything. Heck, almost all the 'this is really destructive of all of manticore manufacturing' that was said in the text or by David was later walked back. Everything will be fine, no big deal.


You'd only see that in the fact that the ships did not have Apollo in the first place. We saw none used in Lancoön Two nor by Tenth Fleet.

But once the battle is engaged, you play for keeps. You fight with the weapons you have and you survive to fight another day, even if the expenditure is monstrous.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:19 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Dilandu wrote:Well, of course its my IMHO, but for me all Honorverse books after the "At All Costs" became... much more boring. The best part of the earlier novels - the complex, fascinating, interesting combat sequences, in which heroes done their very best to achieve (sometimes, very costly) victory - they basically disappeared completely. Basically every major battle became "good guys punch the button - bad guys destroyed in quantities - good guys feel sorry about having to kill so many for about five minutes".

The reason is "Apollo" system. To put it simply - it is too good. It is so good, that it basically eliminated all suspense from the combat sequences; there is no need for any strategy, tactics, inventiveness.

I must point out, that RFC could easily avoid such problem - simply by making the "Apollo" unreliable. And it would make perfect sense, actually. It is a revolutionary new system, designed during the time of severe military funding cuts, and then rushed into deployment. Historical experience generally tell us that such solutions led to... less than ideal success rate. Especially for the system that tend to break the basic physic laws in hard way (seriously, guys, "Apollo" system is based on combining somehow three different concepts of time - the dilated onboard time on the ship, the dilated onboard time on the missile, and some weird "absolute time" of FTL carrier wave. Not to mention, it breaks causality, i.e. it is working as time machine).

By making "Apollo" a capricious, unreliable systems, prone to malfunction, software and hardware bugs, RFC, frankly, could maintain the descent level of suspense and make us actually worry about the characters - because it would be always possible that they would NOT be able to just annihilate the enemy, and may be forced to fight it old-fashioned way. It wouldn't matter even if they still won the absolute majority of battles by Appolinating :D the enemy: if even ONE battle were lost because "Apollo" was unable to correctly synchronize the compensation of time dilation (or broke causality and collapse on itself :lol: ), it would still prove that it may happens again. And we would have a reason to actually worry about our beloved heroes and read the combat sequences, instead of just "meh, they pushed the buttons again and Appolinated everybody with no losses... I just skip it".

Again, it is all my IMHO. But unless the reliability of "Apollo" system would be seriously compromised in the future (or retconned in the past, by adding, for example, some side battle, in which RMN was pounded due to system jinx) - I'm afraid, that one of the best parts of the series would be completely reduced to nothingness.



I share your opinion.

I also was much in agreement with KZT about the BOM in massive. Given the way Adm Yanakov employed quadruple patterns of Apollo pods during the first few battles that Apollo was used, the idea that Manticoran ships had enough FTL control links to manage that salvo offended me. However; once I understood how effective the Apollo control missiles are even without FTL comm I accepted it.


To me the solution to the lack of drama was for Weber to be more overt about the logistical limitations after Oyster Bay. That speech by Queen Elizebeth after the attack was awesome. I particularly liked her assurances that the ships of the RMN had full magazines. Ditto for the ammo ships. After that, the RMN is SOL except for Mk-16 and older missiles.

I will piss people off by saying that I liked the battle of Hypatia. Finally another death ride. Barricade does not seem so implausible to me. Any missile is far more vulnerable during the ballistic phase. (This is why there is so much panic over "hypersonic vehicles" for ICBMs which are nothing more than an RV with guidance and extremely limited maneuverability. The ability to evade intercept goes to crap as the desired accuracy decreases.)
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:19 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Dilandu wrote:Well, of course its my IMHO, but for me all Honorverse books after the "At All Costs" became... much more boring. The best part of the earlier novels - the complex, fascinating, interesting combat sequences, in which heroes done their very best to achieve (sometimes, very costly) victory - they basically disappeared completely. Basically every major battle became "good guys punch the button - bad guys destroyed in quantities - good guys feel sorry about having to kill so many for about five minutes".

The reason is "Apollo" system. To put it simply - it is too good. It is so good, that it basically eliminated all suspense from the combat sequences; there is no need for any strategy, tactics, inventiveness.

I must point out, that RFC could easily avoid such problem - simply by making the "Apollo" unreliable. And it would make perfect sense, actually. It is a revolutionary new system, designed during the time of severe military funding cuts, and then rushed into deployment. Historical experience generally tell us that such solutions led to... less than ideal success rate. Especially for the system that tend to break the basic physic laws in hard way (seriously, guys, "Apollo" system is based on combining somehow three different concepts of time - the dilated onboard time on the ship, the dilated onboard time on the missile, and some weird "absolute time" of FTL carrier wave. Not to mention, it breaks causality, i.e. it is working as time machine).

By making "Apollo" a capricious, unreliable systems, prone to malfunction, software and hardware bugs, RFC, frankly, could maintain the descent level of suspense and make us actually worry about the characters - because it would be always possible that they would NOT be able to just annihilate the enemy, and may be forced to fight it old-fashioned way. It wouldn't matter even if they still won the absolute majority of battles by Appolinating :D the enemy: if even ONE battle were lost because "Apollo" was unable to correctly synchronize the compensation of time dilation (or broke causality and collapse on itself :lol: ), it would still prove that it may happens again. And we would have a reason to actually worry about our beloved heroes and read the combat sequences, instead of just "meh, they pushed the buttons again and Appolinated everybody with no losses... I just skip it".

Again, it is all my IMHO. But unless the reliability of "Apollo" system would be seriously compromised in the future (or retconned in the past, by adding, for example, some side battle, in which RMN was pounded due to system jinx) - I'm afraid, that one of the best parts of the series would be completely reduced to nothingness.



I share your opinion.

I also was much in agreement with KZT about the BOM in massive. Given the way Adm Yanakov employed quadruple patterns of Apollo pods during the first few battles that Apollo was used, the idea that Manticoran ships had enough FTL control links to manage that salvo offended me. However; once I understood how effective the Apollo control missiles are even without FTL comm I accepted it.


To me the solution to the lack of drama was for Weber to be more overt about the logistical limitations after Oyster Bay. That speech by Queen Elizebeth after the attack was awesome. I particularly liked her assurances that the ships of the RMN had full magazines. Ditto for the ammo ships. After that, the RMN is SOL except for Mk-16 and older missiles.

I will piss people off by saying that I liked the battle of Hypatia. Finally another death ride. Barricade does not seem so implausible to me. Any missile is far more vulnerable during the ballistic phase. (This is why there is so much panic over "hypersonic vehicles" for ICBMs which are nothing more than an RV with guidance and extremely limited maneuverability. The ability to evade intercept goes to crap as the desired accuracy decreases.)
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by kzt   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:52 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote: Barricade does not seem so implausible to me. Any missile is far more vulnerable during the ballistic phase. (This is why there is so much panic over "hypersonic vehicles" for ICBMs which are nothing more than an RV with guidance and extremely limited maneuverability. The ability to evade intercept goes to crap as the desired accuracy decreases.)

The geometry just doesn't work unless you assume the missiles are lined up head to tail. This means the missiles have no target and can't be controlled. As it was stated they had not done any manipulation, and a missile will automatically position such that it can both see the target and see the launching ship this seems 'unlikely'.

They are going to arrange themselves in a basically 2D grid, probably at least 20km from each other, with the nose at the target and the tail at the launcher. And there just isn't any way for the stated geometry to work. The source missile pods would have to have been at right angles to the launcher-target line to have any chance to get more than one missile.

Not to mention that he had a pair of LACs each towing the entire pod core of a SD(P) at 700G in full stealth....
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:30 pm

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Dilandu wrote:With all respect, but "the component of strategy" is a poor excuse for the boring sequences in which you have exactly zero empathy for heroes - because they are never in any kind of danger, and all their strategy is centered around concentrating smugness.


Because it's not about the battles anymore, it's about the GA taking down the supposed thousand pound gorilla without insane civilian casualties in the process. Uncompromising Honor is basically one great battle played out slowly.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:46 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:In particular, Hypatia happened with missiles mostly two generations older than Apollo. If you found those battles boring, then don't blame Apollo. I personally liked them, quite a lot (though I confess I didn't understand the geometry of the Barricade).


Please! This battle was just an enormous amount of facepalms, with ideas like stealth drones hitting ships and 88 battlecruisers destroyed by three Manticoran ships. And all this after spending several previous books explaining that while SLN capital ships are crap, their lighter units are much more comparable with Monties ones.


The battle at Hypatia makes sense to me.

The drone strike was based on overwhelming stealth coupled with tons of time to set the attack up. It's basically Mistletoe with c-frac energies replacing the warhead. With modern velocities there's no need of a warhead in a skin-to-skin situation.

As for the rest of the battle--at that point GA light missiles hit harder than SLN capital ship missiles. Hypatia is the only situation where we weren't looking at massive overkill in GA launches. The SLN defenses do not appear to have been upgraded to deal with the modern threat level, either--and we have seen repeatedly that SLN countermissiles are basically useless against GA EW capability. Their actual defenses come down to their point defense lasers and they'll get one shot each. The GA also had very favorable geometry.

What I don't understand is why the crews didn't abandon ship before the missile storm got there. It would have had almost no effect on the outcome but would have saved most of their lives.

I also wonder if they could have stacked the ships. Can a SLN missile find a ship close behind another ship of it's size, or would the first ship eat them all? Given the very poor SLN targeting at that range I think the birds would have basically all gone for the first target.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:49 pm

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Second point, RFC did figure out a way to make Apollo not be the solution to everything: Oyster Bay. By limiting its availability, almost all of the battles after AAC happened without Apollo.

Can you show me where, in the field, ANYONE was concerned with ammunition, or running out of recon drones, or node wear? Or really any indication that there were now huge logistics issues that hadn't been in place previously?

Becuase I can't, after the discussion with the Queen, remember anyone being at all concerned that they have a very limited amount of anything. Heck, almost all the 'this is really destructive of all of manticore manufacturing' that was said in the text or by David was later walked back. Everything will be fine, no big deal.


How many rounds did the GA use at that point? The only battle that used all that many rounds was Spindle. (Remember, an awful lot of the rounds in the battle at Manticore would have been Havenite.)

Even if not a single missile was loaded into a magazine after Oyster Bay the GA wouldn't have had a ship go empty.
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Re: The big problem of late Honorverse
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:33 am

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Maldorian wrote:
I think the best solution would be a damn good software upgrade for the solarian Halo system for the exsiting ships. If the solarians had better elektronic countermeasures, Apollo and the mantie E.warfare toys wouldn´t be so dangerous.


Agreed. After all, all Manties EW systems are designed to work against Havenite ones, not Solarian! They SHOULD experience a significant drop in efficiency against SLN - just because SLN seekers & communications used different channels, different coding, different frequences.

(Remind me how in 1960s USN developed a decoy & countermeasures package to install on Polaris missiles - so they could penetrate Soviet missile defense around Moscow - and then find out that they literally done EVERYTHING wrong, because they incorrectly evaluated the Soviet radar systems)
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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