Bolthole location

Joat42 wrote:Considering the tentative location of Calvin's Hope and the bridge distance the only location for the wormhole in Haven is either the Cerberus system or an unnamed system east of Fordyce which lies east of Haven.

I can generate a map with all the intersecting distances if someone is interested.

There are probably over 100,000 red dwarf stars in the Haven space. Why does it have to be one of those in the maps you have? J-156-18(L) was a previously thoroughly useless star system.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Considering the tentative location of Calvin's Hope and the bridge distance the only location for the wormhole in Haven is either the Cerberus system or an unnamed system east of Fordyce which lies east of Haven.

I can generate a map with all the intersecting distances if someone is interested.

There are probably over 100,000 red dwarf stars in the Haven space. Why does it have to be one of those in the maps you have? J-156-18(L) was a previously thoroughly useless star system.

Because I forgot to add the qualifier "out of the stars from the published maps".

Joat42 wrote:SNIP Well, according to Darkfall the northern terminus of the bridge is ~70 ly from Haven and the bridge itself is 653.17 ly long. That means it has to be in the SL sphere when it is located only ~200 ly from Sol.

Considering the tentative location of Calvin's Hope and the bridge distance the only location for the wormhole in Haven is either the Cerberus system or an unnamed system east of Fordyce which lies east of Haven.

I can generate a map with all the intersecting distances if someone is interested.

well - if it's not much trouble I for one would be interested!

One of the points raised in Uncompromising Honor was that the Alderman Empire was beginning to feel hemmed in by Manticore after the SEM acquired the Talbott Quadrant systems.
Looking at the maps that show the Talbott Quadrant, it is very difficult to see the physical problems that Talbott poses to the IAE as far as anything other than possible lack of stars (with or without habitable systems). So far we know that the IAM only has bridges to 1) the Manticore Junction ( the IAE end held by Manticore), the Basilisk terminus is Manticore's and Manticore has some arrangement with Matapan which also will put contraints on the IAM's use of those places.

We have an Alderman freighter moving through Talbott in Shadow of Freedom but no info if it was using the Lynx terminus before it showed up or if it had been on it's way from the SL and was now going to use Lynx to get home or if it's original plans had involved going back to the SL or it was going to chain together any purely hyperspace travel to get back home.

I suppose is the presumption at this point must be that, while there may be systems with habitable planets between (more or less a line even if you have to zig and zag around alot) but so far no discovered or explored wormholes. That would make any trade in the area an iffy proposition and probably means that a route through that area would take a massive amount of time in hyperspace vs tracking back to one of the known termini. Of course there might not be much in stars in the area between IAE and the SL and what have been explored so far -from either end- hasn't turned up anything worth either exploiting (settling or using as materials source) or has a wormhole.

A challange of the 2D maps is that it is difficult to judge location relationships because of the lack of depth. Another is that, while a number of wormhole bridges are represented on the several maps, there are a great number from the more recent books that are not.....and that means that, usually, the systems mentioned for these unmarked bridges are also not marked.

Brigade XO wrote:One of the points raised in Uncompromising Honor was that the Alderman Empire was beginning to feel hemmed in by Manticore after the SEM acquired the Talbott Quadrant systems.
Looking at the maps that show the Talbott Quadrant, it is very difficult to see the physical problems that Talbott poses to the IAE as far as anything other than possible lack of stars (with or without habitable systems). So far we know that the IAM only has bridges to 1) the Manticore Junction ( the IAE end held by Manticore), the Basilisk terminus is Manticore's and Manticore has some arrangement with Matapan which also will put contraints on the IAM's use of those places.

We have an Alderman freighter moving through Talbott in Shadow of Freedom but no info if it was using the Lynx terminus before it showed up or if it had been on it's way from the SL and was now going to use Lynx to get home or if it's original plans had involved going back to the SL or it was going to chain together any purely hyperspace travel to get back home.

I suppose is the presumption at this point must be that, while there may be systems with habitable planets between (more or less a line even if you have to zig and zag around alot) but so far no discovered or explored wormholes. That would make any trade in the area an iffy proposition and probably means that a route through that area would take a massive amount of time in hyperspace vs tracking back to one of the known termini. Of course there might not be much in stars in the area between IAE and the SL and what have been explored so far -from either end- hasn't turned up anything worth either exploiting (settling or using as materials source) or has a wormhole.

A challange of the 2D maps is that it is difficult to judge location relationships because of the lack of depth. Another is that, while a number of wormhole bridges are represented on the several maps, there are a great number from the more recent books that are not.....and that means that, usually, the systems mentioned for these unmarked bridges are also not marked.

There is a terminus from Asgerd as well.

Bearing in mind that Silesia, Matapan, Phoenix, and Talbott are regions:

The Andermani have access through Manticore's Gregor terminus to Phoenix, Talbott, Matapan, and Beowulf (League Core) and Haven (Trevor's Star), along with the region in close proximity to Manticore's home system; through Asgerd to Matapan and Midgard; Phoenix also connects to Erewhon ( which is also Maya & Congo) whose other terminus is on the far side of the League. Allowing for a week or two in between wormholes, their merchants can probably get almost anywhere pretty damn fast.

They might feel "cramped" politically, but they have always suffered in comparison to Manticore in economic terms. But the Andermani are also Manticore's largest and most important trading partner (text in HAE), and Silesia was next most important; so all the shipping in the League was actually third in importance to the RMN . . . .

Where does that lead to? Who knows? Wherever MWW takes us, I suppose.

Rob

<quote>I can generate a map with all the intersecting distances if someone is interested.</quote>

*Waves Hand* ANY updated map please.

<quote>Brigade XO wrote:One of the points raised in Uncompromising Honor was that the Alderman Empire was beginning to feel hemmed in by Manticore after the SEM acquired the Talbott Quadrant systems. </quote>

Alderman? IAM?

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:They might feel "cramped" politically, but they have always suffered in comparison to Manticore in economic terms. But the Andermani are also Manticore's largest and most important trading partner (text in HAE), and Silesia was next most important; so all the shipping in the League was actually third in importance to the RMN . . . .

I guess that they didn't count the League as a whole, but each individual member as a trading partner. That's the only way the Empire would be a larger trading partner to Manticore than the League. Shipping I agree, since since three of the MWHJ termini led directly or indirectly through Andermani territory.

In any case, that economical position is about to disappear, as the RoH recovers and begins trading with Manticore. Of course, the Andermani will also benefit from that recovery.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:They might feel "cramped" politically, but they have always suffered in comparison to Manticore in economic terms. But the Andermani are also Manticore's largest and most important trading partner (text in HAE), and Silesia was next most important; so all the shipping in the League was actually third in importance to the RMN . . . .

I guess that they didn't count the League as a whole, but each individual member as a trading partner. That's the only way the Empire would be a larger trading partner to Manticore than the League. Shipping I agree, since since three of the MWHJ termini led directly or indirectly through Andermani territory.

In any case, that economical position is about to disappear, as the RoH recovers and begins trading with Manticore. Of course, the Andermani will also benefit from that recovery.

Basilisk and Gregor are close to the Andies; I don't see a third very close, unless you mean through Asgerd to Matapan to Manticore; easier to use Gregor, I'd think.

Haven might not displace the Andies as the primary trading partner--it depends on too many market variables to say. But most of Silesia and Talbott are already industrialized, just not modernized; and Haven is getting caught up fast, but still isn't quite caught up itself.

I would guess most of the major buying will be by the Republic Systems, investing in home improvements; and once Manticore buys the requisite tech, they will ramp up fast, building manufaturing capacity instead of SDPs for a few years.

Trading partner--someone who buys your stuff. For Manticore, there is little reason (other than fashion) to sell goods to the League, because for the most part their civilian tech is about the same. But League transtellars (the more honest ones, anyway) were very leery of doing business in the Verge, so while they like to sell things, they ship largely through third parties to areas outside the Protectorates: Manticore, Asgerd, Erewhon, other independents and the Andermani Empire all provide lower risk shipping options for Sollies.

But for the Verge systems, Manticore couldn't possibly make enough stuff to serve all the needs, they are just another Core World as far as tech goes; the difference being, that while some Core World systems seem almost mythical to the Verge (Beowulf, forex.) Manties come around every once in a while and provide actual delivery.

This was one of Mesa's businesses as well--Jessyk and its Sollie partner Kalokainos Shipping went to systems in the Verge that were otherwise too risky; in addition to their slave-running and stolen-goods business, they also delivered legit goods--except where the RMN policies rule, since they are both banned.

Feel free to disagree.

Rob

While the Andermani are, at present and because the only alternative is really long transit times in hyperspace, forced to use either the Gregor or Basilisk to get to the primary markets of the SL, that could change. They have to be looking for possible wormholes near their existing systems.

That also has me wondering about the statement that the Andermani are feeling hemmed in with Manticore now having the several new SEM systems in Talbott Sector because that appears- from the 2D maps anyway- not to be "close" to the Andermani Empire in either n-space or hyperspace. Sure, there are bridges not on the maps although we have been learning of them as the series continues but there is still the question of the economic viability of them expanding in any given direction that provides an existing bridge to the greater SL set of markets.

Manticore has THREE current major components in the discussion of trade and ecomomics. The first is the massive advantage that the Junction confers on them as the nexus of the several termini which gives the ability to skip the hyperspace voyage time from either the Junction itself or any of the termini to places which alow ships to reach markets that would not otherwise be viable in the present because of the time and distances invloved for merchant shipping to reach profitable. That lets Manticore charge for the use of it's network and hold the price relativly lower for it's own merchant fleet -and give favored partners/allied systems reduced rates.
The second is that the present size of the MMM and the ability to provide the carrying capacity for commercial transport. Yes, the lower Junction fees confer a pricing advantage, but with the backstory, the Manticore merchant shipping had built up a massive set of trading routes, customer contacts and what you can think of as distribution depots and scheduling that dwarfed anything elce in the League. It's not so much that they own infrastructure in the systems they service but they have representives (even if they are local freight forwarding companies) all over the place and can space can be booked. What made both Lacoon I & II so effective was that Manticore had a massive share of the carrying capacity even if you did not have to use the Junction to move your products. Remember that a fair amount of capasity for a number of Transtellars was on ships leased from (and primarily crewed by) Manticorian companies. Rebuilding that network or the new routes that are going to happen post the SL-GL War will be one challange as they can't just walk back into their former customer because of the dislocation and effects of the Lacoons and the war on the League and everybody impacted. There is also the proable move by a lot of people in the League and elcewhere to spend the money and build more "SL" and other flagged shipping to avoid the Lacoon effects in the future.
The third was and is the ability of Manticore to produce modern commercial and consumer goods to feed the markets of the League and outside it. A lot of that capacity and the people who operated it was destroyed in Oyster Bay. At the moment, the manufacturing capasity of Manticore is primarily focused on rebuilding (and adding new) the stations and that heavy industry and all the feeder capasiity to build it's military needs and other production. That includes the systems and locations (other than what is out at the Junction and the termini) to handle the trade and fleet. It is possible that the Talbott and Silesian parts of the SEM will be picking up more of the commercial/civilian manufacturing for export which will be one of the ways that the merchant hulls will have goods to transport and deliver. That does, however, mean that the logistics for all of that will have shifted to Talbott and Silesia and the Home System's producers have to work back into the trade after a period of not being the major compeditive engine they were.

Markets have changed, capasity has changed and it will take years to establish anything like a level of normalcy. Things are not going right back to what they were.

The distances given in Darkfall are as follows:
Calvin's Hope, ~653 ly from wormhole in Haven sector
Haven, ~70 ly from Haven to wormhole in Haven sector
Sol, ~200 ly to Calvin's Hope
Beowulf, ~150 ly to Calvins's Hope

Here's a slice of the map with the intersects added (click for larger image):


Of course, the location of Calvin's Hope hinges on that the published maps contains the relevant star-systems. Some systems places (ex Mesa) have been interpolated from distances given in different books.

Full map (click for larger image):