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The Torch Wormhole

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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Hornblower   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:12 am

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kzt wrote:
Cartref wrote:One thing that no one has commented, a slave would not be paid for their work. All they would get is their food and shelter and that could be poor quality.

If slaves were "breed is "captivity" they would know no other way of life, hence working for just food (which they could grow) and shelter (which they could also build) would mean basically zero in ongoing costs.

Not that this is really pleasant to contemplate.

Years ago I read an economic analysis of slavery in the US south, and it was highly profitable. You don't have to invest in training the slaves, you can have the slaves do that. The slaves grew their own food, etc.

The idea that slavery in modern times couldn't be profitable is not true. If you do a bunch of dumb things, then sure, but I can lose money on anything if I work at it.


We probably should change the subject to: "The economy of Slavery".
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:10 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:As it was noted in text, the idea was mostly to give Erewhon's populace a bad case of nerves--which they thought would let the Malign lead them into the League, where their internal spies could grab anything they could get on Manti tech, and let their Sollie front companies and allies zip through Erewhonese space.

Anyway, the idea was sort of like the SLN's insistence that the Manties would back down rather than fight; the folks that came up with the notion in the first place couldn't conceive that they might not be right.


Erewhon did, in fact, "get in bed" with the League, as they started building ships for the SLN that were markedly better than SLN's own hardware. The SLN also took over defence for Congo, thereby solving Erewhon's problem, just as the MAlign had wanted.

Except that it failed to see through Barregos, Roszak and Operation Sepoy. The breadcrumbs that they fed the SLN and the Solly companies kept everyone's attention, distracting them from the full picture. The fact that the MAlign envoys posing as Manties shortly before the independence existed in the first place indicates that the MAlign hadn't understood that the cooperation they were faking was actually real.


Sorry, my take on that was different. They built ships for Barregos, not the SLN, and only after the events of CoS; they were smart enough to see that the Maya Sector wasn't going to stay with the League. And the "League's treaty" with Torch was just the Maya Sector OFS governor--it could have been repudiated by the Mandarins (or even the SLN, if they bothered to care).

And the Malign did understand what was going on in Maya--a genuinely credible effort to establish local rule. They intended to make the Maya rebellion a flashpoint in the Verge that makes the Mandarins and OFS so extremely offensive that the League disintegrates into various broken factions.

As of UH, that sort of didn't work out for them, but at least they were not as oblivious to things as the League/SLN.

ymmv Rob
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Theemile   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:31 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Sorry, my take on that was different. They built ships for Barregos, not the SLN, and only after the events of CoS; they were smart enough to see that the Maya Sector wasn't going to stay with the League. And the "League's treaty" with Torch was just the Maya Sector OFS governor--it could have been repudiated by the Mandarins (or even the SLN, if they bothered to care).

And the Malign did understand what was going on in Maya--a genuinely credible effort to establish local rule. They intended to make the Maya rebellion a flashpoint in the Verge that makes the Mandarins and OFS so extremely offensive that the League disintegrates into various broken factions.

As of UH, that sort of didn't work out for them, but at least they were not as oblivious to things as the League/SLN.

ymmv Rob



Another point about Erewhon which happened before the series - in the run up to 1900, Erewhon did see the expansion of Haven and realized that they too were a target. To begin with, they contacted the SL and received a provisional junior membership status (or some such political protection) in the SL and then purchased their fleet of DNs from the capital ship manufacturers of the SLN.

Manticore pulled some cloak and dagger operations, and made the relationship with the SL look bad (details never given), causing Erewhon to renounce their provisional junior member status with the SL and become a member of the Manticorian Alliance.

So they were on the inside of the SL and knew the SL and SLN (The purchase of the DNs was probably to insure Erewhon came in NOT through the OFS processes, but on the track to be a full member (and keep control of their wormhole).)

This, no doubt aided their decision to jump to the Manticorian Alliance. And later, when Barragos started offering his plans, Erewhon (now having felt the loving hand of the SL, being shafted by Manticore, and backstabed by Haven), interested in self defense and local tranquility, jumped at the chance to have someone else pay them to do R&D and build up the infrastructure necessary to build their own modern ships.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:09 am

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kzt wrote:
Cartref wrote:One thing that no one has commented, a slave would not be paid for their work. All they would get is their food and shelter and that could be poor quality.

If slaves were "breed is "captivity" they would know no other way of life, hence working for just food (which they could grow) and shelter (which they could also build) would mean basically zero in ongoing costs.

Not that this is really pleasant to contemplate.

Years ago I read an economic analysis of slavery in the US south, and it was highly profitable. You don't have to invest in training the slaves, you can have the slaves do that. The slaves grew their own food, etc.

The idea that slavery in modern times couldn't be profitable is not true. If you do a bunch of dumb things, then sure, but I can lose money on anything if I work at it.

Slavery in modern times IS extremely profitable. No could be about it. Current estimates are that there are more slaves doing forced labor today than there were when slavery was legal.

Odds are you buy products that at one stage or another had forced labor involved in making them. Shrimp is a big one, for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/f ... one-in-200
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Cartref   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:22 pm

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Back on the Topic of the Wormhole, I seem to recall two things:
1. There was a Manticorian discovery team who went to explore the wormhole and thy got destroyed basically as soon as they exited.
2. The inner Core of MAN wanted Verdant Vista back under their control to protect the wormhole.
3. I think that we the Manticorian team were destroyed, it was strongly suggested that at the other end was a relatively newly populated world(s) protected by a powerful and advanced fleet of war ships.

While I can't remember if it was called out explicitly, but to me its strongly suggestive of Darius.

At least that is my hunch for what it is worth :lol:
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by kzt   » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:43 pm

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Cartref wrote:Back on the Topic of the Wormhole, I seem to recall two things:
1. There was a Manticorian discovery team who went to explore the wormhole and thy got destroyed basically as soon as they exited.
2. The inner Core of MAN wanted Verdant Vista back under their control to protect the wormhole.
3. I think that we the Manticorian team were destroyed, it was strongly suggested that at the other end was a relatively newly populated world(s) protected by a powerful and advanced fleet of war ships.

While I can't remember if it was called out explicitly, but to me its strongly suggestive of Darius.

At least that is my hunch for what it is worth :lol:

Well, there is another existing WH that nobody who has ever gone into has been seen again.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:33 am

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kzt wrote:
Cartref wrote:While I can't remember if it was called out explicitly, but to me its strongly suggestive of Darius.

At least that is my hunch for what it is worth :lol:

Well, there is another existing WH that nobody who has ever gone into has been seen again.


It's not Darius.

We don't know the time reference for that other wormhole no one has ever come back from, but we do know that Darius has existed for only about 170 years. It's possible this other wormhole was surveyed before that.

Most importantly, there's exactly one system that has two wormholes (not two termini of one wormhole junction) and that's The Twins, hence the name. This was the narrator telling us (RFC), not someone speaking, so presumably the uniqueness of The Twins extends to Darius as well. Since Darius already connects to the Felix Wormhole Junction, this mystery wormhole no one has returned from can't lead to Darius.

Mind you, it could lead to somewhere else with an equally isolationist population who did have forts. Maybe even the MAlign. But it is not Darius.
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:39 am

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[quote="ThinksMarkedly]
It's not Darius.

We don't know the time reference for that other wormhole no one has ever come back from, but we do know that Darius has existed for only about 170 years. It's possible this other wormhole was surveyed before that.

Most importantly, there's exactly one system that has two wormholes (not two termini of one wormhole junction) and that's The Twins, hence the name. This was the narrator telling us (RFC), not someone speaking, so presumably the uniqueness of The Twins extends to Darius as well. Since Darius already connects to the Felix Wormhole Junction, this mystery wormhole no one has returned from can't lead to Darius.

Mind you, it could lead to somewhere else with an equally isolationist population who did have forts. Maybe even the MAlign. But it is not Darius.[/quote]

I just don't seem to be able to get this wormhole config into my head.

Is it possible that someone could do a very simple sketch to show the relevant star systems - inc Mannerheim?
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:18 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
I just don't seem to be able to get this wormhole config into my head.

Is it possible that someone could do a very simple sketch to show the relevant star systems - inc Mannerheim?


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM ... JkWEdCMGJn
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Torch Wormhole
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 pm

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Theemile wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
I just don't seem to be able to get this wormhole config into my head.

Is it possible that someone could do a very simple sketch to show the relevant star systems - inc Mannerheim?


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM ... JkWEdCMGJn


(Not to scale)

Also note that the Warner system is in the Verge, less than a week's travel from Sarduchi, which in turn is the other end of the Sarduchi-Włocławek warp bridge. Włocławek is now likely a Manticoran ally in the Madras sector.

Given Mannerheim declared its independence from the League, is a founding member of the RF, a breakaway post-SL entity, it could soon find itself with lots of RMMS and a few RMN ships passing through.

We don't know if Visigoth declared its independence and intent to join the RF as was intended, but it's at the end of another Warp Bridge, one that the GA now controls (Mesa-Visigoth).
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