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Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster Bay

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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Sigs   » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:21 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:You can make some fairly reasonable assumptions.
Based on what evidence? The SEM and Grayson were attacked by a navy they did not know existed, that navy belonged to a nation they did not know existed. That nation had plans they were not aware of. They did not know what the nation in question wanted as the end goal. Making any “reasonable assumptions” based on a 1/100th of a % of information is asking for trouble.



Most people don't have attack aims where their ideal outcome is to damage or destroy 40%, or even 60%, of the shipbuilding in a system.
But the MA wasn’t led by most people, their goal was the significantly weaken the SEM and Grayson without destroying their will to fight. It was a fine line, even if they had more Sharks to throw at the attack what more could they destroy? Home Fleet? 3rd Fleet? The forts at the junction? All the industry in trevor’s star? What exactly would destroying more industry and ships accomplish for them? It would destroy the SEM’s will or ability to fight, the SLN sends it’s 400 SD’s and the SEM has no will remaining to resist. There is only so much you can expect from a nation, and if you pushed to hard the SLN ends up with great examples of RMN’s finest technology and a very intact industry to build a new fleet, instead of ending up with a crushed SLN you end up with an SLN that has state of the art RMN technology and the ability to pump out a hell of a lot of SD(P)’s well before the MA can build their LD’s.

The MA wanted the RMN weakened but not beaten so that they can beat the SLN and with whatever is left over have it out with the RHN and see both navies mutually destroyed. The RHN is savagely beaten, the RMN is beaten down and the SLN is defeated and the League is disintegrating. The SEM had no way of knowing exactly what the end goal was for the MA so they should have made no assumptions and worked based on facts alone.



So if they hit less than 100% of the yards you can start looking at why that might be and what that implies about their capabilities.
So if the MA hit 60%-80% of the SEM’s shipyards just because that met their goals the SEM should assume that the MA doesn’t have enough ships?

The US Army has over 1,000,000 people in uniform fulltime, National Guard and Reserve, exactly how many of those people are in a tier 1 special forces army unit? If a mission calls for the use of Tier 1 Special Forces are you going to assume that they represent all that the enemy has in terms of manpower?

For all the RMN knows the Sharks could have only 1 purpose and that is a surprise attack, so few navies would build more ships that are essentially a one trick pony. For all the RMN knows the MAN could have a few hundred SD(P)’s in the background but only a handful of special ships just for a surprise attack. Why build 100, 300 or 500 Sharks if they serve one purpose and are not combat worthy otherwise?


You'd look at how much overkill they used on the targets that they did hit - 100+% overkill implies that either they didn't trust their weapons effectiveness or they expected substantially better defenses than they actually encountered. Conversely 0% overkill hints that they might be resource stretched because any failure or anything stopped by defenses would have cut into their effectiveness. Militaries try for a reasonable level of overkill.
Unless you attack a lot more targets then you really need to hit to meet your goals, if the MA needed at least 1 of the SEM’s stations destroyed and as many of the dispersed yards as they can, they spread their attack with little margin of error on individual targets, the redundancy is the fact that they are attacking all 3 stations with success being judged if at least one is destroyed.


From looking at what they did hit verses what they could have potentially hit - given their demonstrated capabilities - and looking at the level of overkill employed you can make some pretty reasonable assumptions about how they viewed their tactical goals and capabilities on the day.
Did the RMN and SEM know who was behind the attacks? What their goals were? What their intentions were with regards to the SLN and RHN? Did they know why they were attacked( to destroy them or weaken them)? The bigger the footprint the easier it is for something to go wrong, the easier it is for the RMN to have sensor data and the harder it is for the MA to hide in the shadows. Hell even the League might sit back and wonder what happened if they were heading for a war and someone managed to trash the entire industry of the SEM along with it’s navy.

Obviously like much intelligence work you've got the risk that something totally outside your knowledge caused them to pick a goal you'd dismissed as irrational or caused them to employ less force than they actually had available (including deliberately holding back to screw with your threat assessment). But its a far better starting point than simply assuming your enemy had vast resources that they simply arbitrarily decided not to use this time.
No, when you don’t have any intelligence on the enemy or their intentions and goals it is far better to assume they are stronger and build as powerful fighting force as you can afford rather than assume they don’t have enough fleet to threaten you and cut your fleet strength. I am not suggesting that the SEM dig it’s own economic grave and jump in by maintaining a fleet of 1,000 or more SD(P)’s right after OB on its own, I am suggesting they build and maintain as many SD(P)’s as they can and with Bolthole that would be in the 400+ range.

Assuming the enemy who just slaughtered 9 million of your citizens in a few seconds is strong is better than assuming that he is weak, one assumption gives you a pleasant surprise if it was a premature attack on their part and the other assumptions leaves you conquered or slaughtered.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:36 pm

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Sigs wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I'm not arguing it isn't worth defending, quite the opposite. Nor am I arguing that they depended on the announcement. I'm saying that the announcement did happen and therefore they knew the timetable for the transit.

We don't know what happened prior to the announcement. They may have been scrambling to get someone there (and Theemile says RFC said they had sent a streak boat), only to recall once the timeline became clear.

They had 2 years between the fall of Congo and the survey expedition, that's a big gap to leave hoping that no one would go there before the schedule. That's what doesn't make sense. If it's important it should have been protected from 1919 and if it is worth the risk of alerting the RMN that something big is in the region by destroying their ship in 1921 it is worth the picket past 1921.


It was a bit less than two years. Torch was founded in August 1919 and the transit occurred in April 1921, but the survey took some time, more than your regular wormhole because of the eddies coming through due to the twin WH on the other end. Also, we don't know when the Harvest Joy's mission was announced. It might have been announced two days after the news of the liberation of the Congo reached Manticore.

And remember that until Zilwicki and Cachat return from Mesa in May 1922, no one knew there was an enemy to begin with, so no one was rushing.

I agree that the MAlign couldn't and shouldn't count on that. But as we've seen and established, they are arrogant and not making rational decisions. Who's to say this isn't another mistake? Anyway, we don't know how long the Mannerheim BC squadron was on station for and we don't know what force preceded it. There might have been a picket continuously in The Twins since September 1919.

In fact, if they were rotating the picket forces among the different components of the RF, that might explain why it was Mannerheim Navy and not MAN there. That's a bit far-fetched, though, because aside from Mannerheim, none of the other components would have a reason/excuse to tell their spacers.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:08 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
It was a bit less than two years. Torch was founded in August 1919 and the transit occurred in April 1921, but the survey took some time, more than your regular wormhole because of the eddies coming through due to the twin WH on the other end. Also, we don't know when the Harvest Joy's mission was announced. It might have been announced two days after the news of the liberation of the Congo reached Manticore.

And remember that until Zilwicki and Cachat return from Mesa in May 1922, no one knew there was an enemy to begin with, so no one was rushing.

I agree that the MAlign couldn't and shouldn't count on that. But as we've seen and established, they are arrogant and not making rational decisions. Who's to say this isn't another mistake? Anyway, we don't know how long the Mannerheim BC squadron was on station for and we don't know what force preceded it. There might have been a picket continuously in The Twins since September 1919.

In fact, if they were rotating the picket forces among the different components of the RF, that might explain why it was Mannerheim Navy and not MAN there. That's a bit far-fetched, though, because aside from Mannerheim, none of the other components would have a reason/excuse to tell their spacers.


You are missing the obvious - Mannerheim has the largest RF conventional force by far - Albrect said in the first RF council that they would be leaning heavily on the conventional Mannerheim forces until the Leonard Detweilers were completed. Most importantly, Mannerheim has a taskforce "legimately" sitting right on the Felix junction, and can get forces to the Twins in minutes and the Congo wormhole terminus within hours.

All the rest of the RF forces don't have enough firepower, and are too distantly spaced to respond quickly. Any quick responders to the Twins would have to come from Darius or Felix, and Darius doesn't appear to have a conventional navy - yet.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Sigs   » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:13 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
It was a bit less than two years. Torch was founded in August 1919 and the transit occurred in April 1921, but the survey took some time, more than your regular wormhole because of the eddies coming through due to the twin WH on the other end. Also, we don't know when the Harvest Joy's mission was announced. It might have been announced two days after the news of the liberation of the Congo reached Manticore.
My bad, you are right it wasn't 24 months, it was 20-21 months...

My point is that the second they heard that Congo was captured by what amounted to an unofficial multi national force made up of Erewhon, SLN, Haven, Manticore and the Ballroom you defend the other end of the WH if you judge that it is worth defending. Who is to say that the SEM or the Republic or Erewhon hadn't found intelligence to indicate that the WH might be important and send a mission immediately after the system is captured? My issue is that any number of 100 things could have happened and the RF wouldn't have gotten the information on time if they depended on that information for their deployment. No military organization bases their deployments on their enemy informing them when they are moving, like I said it is either worth fighting for and dying for or it's not. An announcement might have caused a surge during the time of the mission but in no way should it mean that before and after the mission they don't protect the system.



And remember that until Zilwicki and Cachat return from Mesa in May 1922, no one knew there was an enemy to begin with, so no one was rushing.
I would say both Manticore and Haven knew there was an enemy, they just didn't realize who it was and that both nations were on the hit list. Manticore had information gathered in Talbott that someone/something was causing organized trouble in the region and it might have caused many a problem for them, so they knew there was an unknown party against them. Some people in the SEM senior leadership had reservation that Haven was really involved in the assassination attempts and after OB they sure as hell were well aware that there is an unknown 3rd party that was fighting against the.

Haven was in the same boat, they knew someone had set them up as the once backing the assassinations, and they already knew that they were pushed into a war with Manticore under false pretenses, they might not be able to prove it but they sure as hell would be adding up all those little tidbits to get a fuller picture. Add to that the fact that OB happened during a very convenient time for them but they didn’t do it and that would be a lot of red flags right there.

Neither side might be able to put a name and face to the organization but they would be able to see that whoever it was wasn’t really too interested in the wellbeing of either nation.


In fact, if they were rotating the picket forces among the different components of the RF, that might explain why it was Mannerheim Navy and not MAN there. That's a bit far-fetched, though, because aside from Mannerheim, none of the other components would have a reason/excuse to tell their spacers.
And that would draw a lot of suspicions if it came out, the RF was acting like a nation before it came out as a nation, so it’s either one nation or like you said they are/were arrogant.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:49 pm

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Sigs wrote:My point is that the second they heard that Congo was captured by what amounted to an unofficial multi national force made up of Erewhon, SLN, Haven, Manticore and the Ballroom you defend the other end of the WH if you judge that it is worth defending. Who is to say that the SEM or the Republic or Erewhon hadn't found intelligence to indicate that the WH might be important and send a mission immediately after the system is captured?


No one is arguing they didn't. We are arguing in fact that they did and RFC said as much too.

And remember that until Zilwicki and Cachat return from Mesa in May 1922, no one knew there was an enemy to begin with, so no one was rushing.
I would say both Manticore and Haven knew there was an enemy, they just didn't realize who it was and that both nations were on the hit list. Manticore had information gathered in Talbott that someone/something was causing organized trouble in the region and it might have caused many a problem for them, so they knew there was an unknown party against them. Some people in the SEM senior leadership had reservation that Haven was really involved in the assassination attempts and after OB they sure as hell were well aware that there is an unknown 3rd party that was fighting against the.


You're right, they already knew there was someone before May 1922. By Operation Rat Poison (April 1921), Haven knew there was a third party because they hadn't ordered those assassinations. Honor also suspected as much, but the SEM leadership wasn't convinced. That only happened with Oyster Bay (Feb 1922).

Between those two events, they couldn't rule it out that it was the SL or anyone opportunistic enough. You could probably make the connection that the assassinations and the conspiracy at Monica (Feb 1921), but from there that the wormhole was somewhat important would be a stretch.

In any case, the task force was definitely on station at the time of the Battle of Monica.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Sigs   » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:37 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:

In any case, the task force was definitely on station at the time of the Battle of Monica.


And they guarded the system with just prayers before the expected survey ship and with prayers after they took out Harvest Joy... solid strategic thinking.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by kzt   » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:21 pm

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Sigs wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:

In any case, the task force was definitely on station at the time of the Battle of Monica.


And they guarded the system with just prayers before the expected survey ship and with prayers after they took out Harvest Joy... solid strategic thinking.

How does the other side get guarded? Last thing I read was it doesn’t. Nobody in the RMN or else where cared enough to do anything about it.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:28 am

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kzt wrote:How does the other side get guarded? Last thing I read was it doesn’t. Nobody in the RMN or else where cared enough to do anything about it.


One side(the MA) knows the value and importance of the system, they have presumably done a threat assessment of one sort or another to determine how dangerous it would be if the SEM or Haven were to gain knowledge of the system in question, it's location and where the other WH leads. They determined it is worth the risk of destroying a ship belonging to the RMN, if that was their determination then by all means they should have done anything and everything to protect it from the first chance they had after they lost Congo.

The SEM and the Republic on the other hand knew absolutely nothing about the WH and its destination, nor do they know of it's importance. Then there is the fact that the Kingdom of Torch has a population of 4.25 million people, not exactly an industrial or military giant which would mean that Torch is safe since any assault on them via the WH would basically scream that there is something important on the other side which would force the RMN and subsequently the GA to heavily fortify their end of the WH and make plans to find out where it ends. I mean the MA's problem is that they are worried the WH will eventually lead them to Darius and shine a light to the RF's true masters so that WH is not an offensive route...yet.


The goal of the MA should be to NOT attract attention to the WH, go after Torch all you want but avoid drawing any attention to the WH. The MA, Mesa and the former slaves have enough history to explain any attacks on Torch without automatically jumping to conclusions that the MA is worried about the WH. Ideally from the MA's point of view there would be no more attacks on Torch besides with the rise of the GA and knowing that Mesa is deeply involved with the MA whether they realize it or not realistically the GA would picket the system with a handful of SD(P)’s and some lighter units not to mention a liberal deployment of LAC’s and missile pods.

Guarding a WH no one knows about with a very visible % of your available ships over a 2-3 year time frame will draw a lot of attention, conducting a WH assault to destroy Torch will draw a hell of a lot more attention and put a huge target on the RF’s back for absolutely no return because Torch is of little military or industrial value to the GA and will add another 4.25 million reasons to find the MA and also give the GA a big shiny arrow to indicate what direction the MA is and add another piece of intelligence.
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:00 pm

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Sigs wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:

In any case, the task force was definitely on station at the time of the Battle of Monica.


And they guarded the system with just prayers before the expected survey ship and with prayers after they took out Harvest Joy... solid strategic thinking.


Why do you call 8 BCs "just prayer"?
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Re: Would Dispersing Shipyards Blunt or Stop a Second Oyster
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:23 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Why do you call 8 BCs "just prayer"?

8 BC's for a 4-8 month period out of 4 years between the time that Congo is lost to the point in time that the League surrendered is just a prayer unless there is a sizable picket before and after Harvest Joy, maybe not a squadron of BC's but still sizable enough to handle most threats coming through the WH.

You argued that they had a picket only during the expected timeframe of the survey, before and after is defended with a prayer, praying that the SEM doesn't send another survey expectantly months before the Harvest Joy or months or years after the Harvest Joy.

If the system is worth defending it should be worth defending from day 1 on with an adequate picket, and it should definitely be well defended with manned defences especially after you destroy an RMN ship, make sure no more ships come through otherwise it will get very interesting very quickly when the RMN starts asking question the RF doesn't want to answer.
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