Trump Implementing the Palin. doctrin

PeterZ wrote:

Joat42 wrote:What makes it even worse is that the US have been pushing the Kurds to dismantle their defensive fortifications to appease Turkey because US guaranteed they would restrain Turkey from attacking.

Squandered trust is hellishly expensive to regain...

Very true. Yet, if to keep trust it means fighting endless wars and investment of the US military in every hot spot in the world, it may well be better to lose that sort of trust.

Now, we'll see if Turkey can be restrained without using the US military. If not, will sanctions hurt Turkey enough to deter other nations in the future? Time will tell.

In this particular hotspot the US had left the fighting to the Kurds, then they fucked them over. There are better ways to withdraw than fucking your allies over after promising to have their back.

PeterZ wrote:

Joat42 wrote:What makes it even worse is that the US have been pushing the Kurds to dismantle their defensive fortifications to appease Turkey because US guaranteed they would restrain Turkey from attacking.

Squandered trust is hellishly expensive to regain...

Very true. Yet, if to keep trust it means fighting endless wars and investment of the US military in every hot spot in the world, it may well be better to lose that sort of trust.

The Kurds were the model for how NOT to have the US military fighting in these hot spots!

They were doing all the fighting. They took over 10,000 casualties taking out ISIS FOR the US. Being the tip of the spear. The US took less than 20 because they had almost no troops directly engaged, they were there as

1. Trainers and coordinators.
2. Tripwires against a Turkish invasion of Kurdish territory.

That. Was. The. Deal.

The Kurds spilled out their blood like water taking down ISIS. The US was supposed to ensure their security from the Turks by having a handful of troops there so the Turks couldn't attack without attacking US troops which there was no way they were going to do. The Kurds removed their defensive emplacements against Turkish invasion on the US's WORD they would be protected.

The Kurds held up their end.

They were then betrayed by Trump. He explicitly pulled those troops out of the way so the Turks could launch their invasion.

And now more of them are dying because of it. US allies are being killed with the explicit approval of the US president.

And your reaction is "well, if that's the price to pay for some vague nebulous idea that this somehow leads to greater isolationism then that's ok I guess"???

So part of "The Deal" is that the US fights a war against a NATO alleged ally?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:So part of "The Deal" is that the US fights a war against a NATO alleged ally?

Try reading for comprehension.

Joat42 wrote:What makes it even worse is that the US have been pushing the Kurds to dismantle their defensive fortifications to appease Turkey because US guaranteed they would restrain Turkey from attacking.

Squandered trust is hellishly expensive to regain...

PeterZ wrote:Very true. Yet, if to keep trust it means fighting endless wars and investment of the US military in every hot spot in the world, it may well be better to lose that sort of trust.

Now, we'll see if Turkey can be restrained without using the US military. If not, will sanctions hurt Turkey enough to deter other nations in the future? Time will tell.

Joat42 wrote:In this particular hotspot the US had left the fighting to the Kurds, then they fucked them over. There are better ways to withdraw than fucking your allies over after promising to have their back.

Don't disagree. I can live with this. If the President succeeds in curtailing Turkey's aggression with sanctions and other economic tools, great! If that fails, I am ok with his trying.

I do not want the US to be the world's policeman. If this is the cost for giving up that role, that's just fine.

PeterZ wrote:Don't disagree. I can live with this. If the President succeeds in curtailing Turkey's aggression with sanctions and other economic tools, great! If that fails, I am ok with his trying.

The aggression WAS curtailed until "someone" thought it was a good idea to tell Erdogan "well, go ahead and pull the trigger - I don't care". If the plan was to make things blow up in your face so the US can apply sanctions on Turkey, it was well executed but in any other scenario it's a disaster which a lot of people in congress and senate on all sides are pointing out.

PeterZ wrote:I do not want the US to be the world's policeman. If this is the cost for giving up that role, that's just fine.

The cost is that know everyone knows that the US can't be trusted , period. If you think that's a good idea, fine, but don't complain WHEN it comes back and bite you because it will.

The cost is also that China and Russia will gain geopolitical clout, and if you don't think that'll negatively impact US interests I have a bridge to sell you.

PeterZ et al seem utterly convinced that the US can be both isolated and removed from world affairs and be as rich and influential as it is now, despite the complete lack of evidence to support such a position.

Speaking from Australia, I'd like to point out how this looks from here.
Since WW2 we have always been the first to join the US in their military adventures, even when there was no actual reason for us to do so. For Vietnam the slogan was "All the way with LBJ", and with the UK we formed the "Coalition of the Willing" to invade Iraq.
The rationale for all of this is that being a European enclave in the Asian sphere we are aware of countries that greatly outnumber us in our area, like China, Indonesia, and Vietnam. Thus the accepted wisdom was that the US would always come to our aid if we were attacked. Even if that wasn't so, these other countries wouldn't want to risk it.
Now all is uncertain. There is much discussion about our building our own nuclear deterrent, which we certainly could do, having the world's biggest uranium deposits and a large economy for our size.
Our current government is conservative, technically equivalent to the Republicans (albeit probably not as far right), and a harder right faction has formed a Parliamentary Committee to look into nuclear power and weapons.
Some on here will probably be OK with that saying that the US won't have to commit troops and treasure to defend us, but they never have anyway, it was all a bluff, from which you gained our support.

PeterZ wrote: SNIP
Don't disagree. I can live with this. If the President succeeds in curtailing Turkey's aggression with sanctions and other economic tools, great! If that fails, I am ok with his trying.

I do not want the US to be the world's policeman. If this is the cost for giving up that role, that's just fine.

I'm sure that you can live with it... the problem is that the Kurds are going to die for it.

If you are going to change roles, that is your privilage, but anyone with even a tiny portion of honor or decency would disengage carefully and over a long period.

Instead we see the trumpet dump the kurds into the literal crapper, after one little phone call from his best mate Erdogan, who just happens to have a Trump Towers in the country.

Erdogan: Jump
Trump: How high?
Erdogan: Bend over
Trump: how far?

PeterZ wrote:
I do not want the US to be the world's policeman. If this is the cost for giving up that role, that's just fine.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/politics ... index.html

Still going to run with the delusional idea that this is about Trump wanting to "give up that role"?

This is not about Trump having some philosophical preference to withdraw the US military from overseas conflicts. This is about who Trump has decided to align with. Putin, Erdogan, and MBS are very happy these days.

In other news, guess who teamed up to block the UN Security Council condemnation of the Turkish assault on the Kurds? Tell me Peter, what part of "not being the world's policeman" required Trump to team up with Russia against every traditional western ally of America on that one?

Maybe you should take another read through this thread, and spend some time in reflection:

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