Large ship canal between west of Howell Bay to the Cauldron?

looking at the map of Charis, it would seem that a sea canal cutting across the narrow landmass between Howell Bay, to the Cauldron, would be of enormous benefit, especially if it could carry large ships!
going across Crest Hallow it looks like it maybe...80?? miles long there?
even less across the Styvyn Mountains mountains to the North but of course may not be practical there.

It would cut an enormous distance for ships to travel and allow re-positioning of naval forces from protected waters from the enclosed Howell bay really quickly.

http://www.davidweber.net/files/downloa ... oldMap.jpg

With all the effort Charis has put into fortifying the current (natural) entrance to Howell Bay, I'm not sure they'd want to carve a new entrance to the bay that would put a possible invader next door to Tellesburg unless they're very certain there won't be an invasion attempt.

Maybe once the Safehold Federation starts Gbaba-hunting that canal can be put in.

Julia Minor wrote:With all the effort Charis has put into fortifying the current (natural) entrance to Howell Bay, I'm not sure they'd want to carve a new entrance to the bay that would put a possible invader next door to Tellesburg unless they're very certain there won't be an invasion attempt.

Maybe once the Safehold Federation starts Gbaba-hunting that canal can be put in.

with grav controlled ship lifts

Julia Minor wrote:With all the effort Charis has put into fortifying the current (natural) entrance to Howell Bay, I'm not sure they'd want to carve a new entrance to the bay that would put a possible invader next door to Tellesburg unless they're very certain there won't be an invasion attempt.

Maybe once the Safehold Federation starts Gbaba-hunting that canal can be put in.

#1
any attempt to force and invade using that canal would the military equivalent of sitting on a grenade and pulling the pin as means to jump over a hedge!

It sounds like a good idea, except the reality would be an absolute horrific bloodbath for the invader.
Read upon the defences of the Panama Canal during WW2, for example.

Since the area would be directly next to, and have large ship access from Howell bay, they'd easily site massive coastal defence batteries and build major reinforced concrete forts, amongst other things.
And at least one major fort along the canal inland.
Add in airships for scouting and bombing etc

Note that while Singapore fell, due to the grotesque incompetence and stupidity of the British higher ups, sigh, the truth was those big 15" guns there COULD fire inland and played absolute merry hell with the Japanese form their own accounts. The problem was the defenders didn't have enough HE shells, idiots gave them mostly armour piercing and didn't send out enough new munitions.

Such huge guns can have ranges up to 25+ miles, firing from land bases they are extremely accurate, hit within the range of a football field, and when they go off even an airburst will blow a heavy tank rolling over and riddle it through and through!
Any poor infantry man within 150 yard radius is likely to be instant hamburger. Eeek!
since it's your country you will have, like the Swiss, prepared a network of defences and observer sites.
So, you can set up precision artillery control long before an enemy appears, which makes it much much nastier.

Read up for example on "Anzio Annie" a pair of railway guns the Germans used to bombard the Anzio beach head in Italy, when you see what those 11" inch shells can do...ye gods!
and they are small fry compared to the 15" and larger you could easily set up in your own country to defend your own vital canals and harbours.

Charis at the moment has 10" guns, and the Inner Circle will have the info on WW2 era guns.
the American 16" guns were extremely effective and the British alas never finished work on the much improved MK II 15" BL gun design but the MK1 15" served for many years and was well liked.
which is better in practical terms I honestly don't know but the MKII sounds like it would be have been superb.

("Pratical"...ease of manufacture, longevity, range, reliability...that gets complicated to work out what is "best", sure the Japanese had the biggest guns but the Yamato's were "dinosaurs" that took vastly too much material to produce when Japan couldn't afford such waste
A dozen 15" guns is better than two 18" guns)

Anzio Annie K5 railway gun, shell weight 536lb, range 40 miles.
The German guns were specifically designed to be railway guns and could fire extra charges for higher range but wore the barrel.
Arguably the best railway guns ever built.
Railway guns can be moved, so gives you lots more options, but, lack the defences etc of a fixed position.

Singapore and other areas, British BL 15" Naval gun MK1
shell weight 1938 lbs, range 21 miles for naval version

shore mounts in general, not always, allowed longer ranges than ship mounts by typically having higher maximum elevations.
The American "Iowa" battleships managed to get gun elevation up to +45,where as most battle ships had between +25 to +35 maximum elevation

And due to the fact you can put fortress guns on high angle mounts, the shells will come down at a very steep angle and punch through the deck of ships where the armour is thinnest.

plus of course, you'd have a huge amount of smaller guns in reinforced bunkers that would turn transport ships and light warships into colander, and infantry into wishing they were somewhere else.

Thus, it would be absolute suicide to try and force an army against that in the face of that.
Plus, the Charisian navy and airforce attacking your transport route as well
Note you could sit a battleship or "monitor" in the Canal and whatever gunboats, and blow the heck out of anyone.

Such a canal would likely have harbours for inland trade or towns or for locks, and certainly manoeuvring and passing basins to allow plenty of space for ships to set up for bombardment duties.

And, you could mine it...and that would be brutal if the canal flows to the Cauldron and you let mines flush down towards the enemy....

and since you control the internal lines of communication and know the terrain, it's your country! the enemy would be in a world of hurt.

The Swiss were masters of defensive works, I'm sure the Inner Circle will have a field day reading up on that.



#2 by the time they are up to hunting the Gbaba, they won't NEED canals!
they'll have counter-grav and can lift enormous vessels anywhere through the air
so this is an immediate need, in terms of, well, next few decades

Julia Minor wrote:With all the effort Charis has put into fortifying the current (natural) entrance to Howell Bay, I'm not sure they'd want to carve a new entrance to the bay that would put a possible invader next door to Tellesburg unless they're very certain there won't be an invasion attempt.

Maybe once the Safehold Federation starts Gbaba-hunting that canal can be put in.

Ummmm, no offense. But any attempt to militarily FORCE a canal would be suicide by the attackers.

If it has locks, it is not an invasion path. Once they are blown and the high side reservoir drained, there is no canal for a long time.

SilverbladeTE wrote:

Julia Minor wrote:With all the effort Charis has put into fortifying the current (natural) entrance to Howell Bay, I'm not sure they'd want to carve a new entrance to the bay that would put a possible invader next door to Tellesburg unless they're very certain there won't be an invasion attempt.

Maybe once the Safehold Federation starts Gbaba-hunting that canal can be put in.

#1
any attempt to force and invade using that canal would the military equivalent of sitting on a grenade and pulling the pin as means to jump over a hedge!

It sounds like a good idea, except the reality would be an absolute horrific bloodbath for the invader.
Read upon the defences of the Panama Canal during WW2, for example.

Since the area would be directly next to, and have large ship access from Howell bay, they'd easily site massive coastal defence batteries and build major reinforced concrete forts, amongst other things.
And at least one major fort along the canal inland.
Add in airships for scouting and bombing etc

Note that while Singapore fell, due to the grotesque incompetence and stupidity of the British higher ups, sigh, the truth was those big 15" guns there COULD fire inland and played absolute merry hell with the Japanese form their own accounts. The problem was the defenders didn't have enough HE shells, idiots gave them mostly armour piercing and didn't send out enough new munitions.

Such huge guns can have ranges up to 25+ miles, firing from land bases they are extremely accurate, hit within the range of a football field, and when they go off even an airburst will blow a heavy tank rolling over and riddle it through and through!
Any poor infantry man within 150 yard radius is likely to be instant hamburger. Eeek!
since it's your country you will have, like the Swiss, prepared a network of defences and observer sites.
So, you can set up precision artillery control long before an enemy appears, which makes it much much nastier.

Read up for example on "Anzio Annie" a pair of railway guns the Germans used to bombard the Anzio beach head in Italy, when you see what those 11" inch shells can do...ye gods!
and they are small fry compared to the 15" and larger you could easily set up in your own country to defend your own vital canals and harbours.

Charis at the moment has 10" guns, and the Inner Circle will have the info on WW2 era guns.
the American 16" guns were extremely effective and the British alas never finished work on the much improved MK II 15" BL gun design but the MK1 15" served for many years and was well liked.
which is better in practical terms I honestly don't know but the MKII sounds like it would be have been superb.

("Pratical"...ease of manufacture, longevity, range, reliability...that gets complicated to work out what is "best", sure the Japanese had the biggest guns but the Yamato's were "dinosaurs" that took vastly too much material to produce when Japan couldn't afford such waste
A dozen 15" guns is better than two 18" guns)

Anzio Annie K5 railway gun, shell weight 536lb, range 40 miles.
The German guns were specifically designed to be railway guns and could fire extra charges for higher range but wore the barrel.
Arguably the best railway guns ever built.
Railway guns can be moved, so gives you lots more options, but, lack the defences etc of a fixed position.

Singapore and other areas, British BL 15" Naval gun MK1
shell weight 1938 lbs, range 21 miles for naval version

shore mounts in general, not always, allowed longer ranges than ship mounts by typically having higher maximum elevations.
The American "Iowa" battleships managed to get gun elevation up to +45,where as most battle ships had between +25 to +35 maximum elevation

And due to the fact you can put fortress guns on high angle mounts, the shells will come down at a very steep angle and punch through the deck of ships where the armour is thinnest.

plus of course, you'd have a huge amount of smaller guns in reinforced bunkers that would turn transport ships and light warships into colander, and infantry into wishing they were somewhere else.

Thus, it would be absolute suicide to try and force an army against that in the face of that.
Plus, the Charisian navy and airforce attacking your transport route as well
Note you could sit a battleship or "monitor" in the Canal and whatever gunboats, and blow the heck out of anyone.

Such a canal would likely have harbours for inland trade or towns or for locks, and certainly manoeuvring and passing basins to allow plenty of space for ships to set up for bombardment duties.

And, you could mine it...and that would be brutal if the canal flows to the Cauldron and you let mines flush down towards the enemy....

and since you control the internal lines of communication and know the terrain, it's your country! the enemy would be in a world of hurt.

The Swiss were masters of defensive works, I'm sure the Inner Circle will have a field day reading up on that.



#2 by the time they are up to hunting the Gbaba, they won't NEED canals!
they'll have counter-grav and can lift enormous vessels anywhere through the air
so this is an immediate need, in terms of, well, next few decades

Isilith wrote:

Ummmm, no offense. But any attempt to militarily FORCE a canal would be suicide by the attackers.

No kidding, would be worse than the Somme because the attackers of course would have very easily interdicted supply route (ocean, next to Charis and it's allies) and against defences that they might have taken decades to build up!
*shudder*
As said the Swiss and also the Finns made absolute "mangler" defence networks.

The Inner Circle are smart, so are the professional military in the Charisian Empire.
So a very easy way to boost the defences of vital areas, harbours, ocean canal junctions, narrows etc, is to take older ships that are to be decommissioned, sail them to near the area or where's good to strip them
take the guns, optics, hatches, armour maybe even engines and use those as part of fortifications, it would save a fortune and time.

For areas close to Charis, such as the Throat and Eryastor bay, you could easily cargo transport heavy guns

When the "City" class ships get retired, sail them to further away places, like the islands near Dholar that Charis now owns, and use their guns etc to build fortifications: transport and materiel in one go

You can test and see if the City class 6" guns can use the newer "smokeless" propellants (and Owl's remotes can do such very well), but even if they can't you'll get a decade or more good use out of them.
Older field guns, or other small guns can likewise be incorporated into their landward sides or for beach and rear defence.
Thus Charis can quickly build incredibly effective bastions, especially since they can now transport materials in huge cargo ships so build reinforced concrete.


D-Day only succeeded by a superb intelligence/deception and absolutely colossal firepower.
Mahris and maybe the "bad" Siddirmark that's brewing up may attack Charisian lands and bases, but if so, hey, they won't enjoy it....

Actually, that maybe a good strategy, to avoid threats to vital areas or civilians, tempt the maniacs into attacking an island base especially if Charis has managed to hide how well it has actually been fortified.
Again, the IC have the lessons of history to learn from.
Imagine something like the battle for Okinawa, but worse (for the attackers) Eeek!

Mahrys and Zhyou-Zhwo are pathological in their hatred, so they really could be gulled into doing something like that
pity for their poor bloody infantry though
but, if it hacks them off at the knees in terms of power and support...a catastrophic series of infantry disasters could break their support, ala the Russian Revolution (though with hopefully much better outcomes!)

phillies wrote:If it has locks, it is not an invasion path. Once they are blown and the high side reservoir drained, there is no canal for a long time.

I doubt that there will be a canal, I expect that there will be a rail line between Tellesburg and a fishing village that will become known as Tellesburg's western Harbor. This will be seen only by fools as a viable invasion route.

Rail road guns readily positioned to cover the ends of tunnels and or bridges will make taking the passes rather difficult. Also the rail road will allow the defender (Charis) to supply their troops much more readily than any attacker.

phillies wrote:If it has locks, it is not an invasion path. Once they are blown and the high side reservoir drained, there is no canal for a long time.

Good point!

I don't know if it would need locks or not, or what direction of flow.

Howell bay is a lot like a capitol letter "L" turned 90 degree clockwise
So I guess the rotational forces would tend to build up water in the South West of the huge bay, thus it might be higher on the inner canal side
and the prevailing Western winds might tend to counter act that a bit.
But like the Mediterranean it's one very narrow entrance probably means a low tidal range (though sometimes that's not the case)
Have I got that right?

also we don't know the geography to know what's possible.
That's RFCs job

A sea level canal like the Suez is much easier to operate and faster because it doesn't have any locks.
It's still a nightmare for any attacker since it's so easy to mine and preregister artillery etc

Castenea wrote:
I doubt that there will be a canal, I expect that there will be a rail line between Tellesburg and a fishing village that will become known as Tellesburg's western Harbor. This will be seen only by fools as a viable invasion route.

Rail road guns readily positioned to cover the ends of tunnels and or bridges will make taking the passes rather difficult. Also the rail road will allow the defender (Charis) to supply their troops much more readily than any attacker.

as noted in reply above, if you look at Howell Bay, consider Charis huge reliance and need of oceanic transport (ocean crossing Empire) and fact that ships are way more effective transports...
A canal there really would be much like the Suez Canal, except even more so, since it's directly part of Charis itself, kind of like if England had instead been in Syria's geographic location but controlled the entire lands around the Mediterranean.

Passage around the continent of Charis and many islands, the stormy seas that will inevitably cause damage and losses, can be avoided, would make it one of the most viable canals, ever.
Huge savings in time for shipping.

I'd certainly imagine they'd start with a railroad if there isn't one there already as it is indeed such a superb, logical connection between the Carter Sea and Howell Bay
I can't recall where they put railroad as mentioned in TFT that the Dholaran King used alas.