United Provinces devopment

SilverbladeTE wrote:DMcCunney
Regarding unions...simple problem is Human Nature.
Humans in groups tend to be moronic arseholes, alas, because the inertia and corruption drag the group towards the lower end of the spectrum
This applies everywhere, sigh.
Hard, ugly brutal fact.
Takes a lot of effort.to reduce that problem and few.really think about it in detail and admit it, or its true menace to our species survival...much easier for folk to blame a group or a "side" rather than the real problem

With the military for example, you have harsh bloody "Darwinism" in action that ends up cleaning some of that out but at great cost, then post-war, it builds up again.
See the grotesque incompetence and stupidity of the first years of both World Wars...ugh.
Idea of shooting a crap load of officers and bureaucrats say around 1933....

In the US, your "robber barons" used thugs and corruption to break Unionism, people were machine gunned for goodness sake and even bombed from the air!
Organized crime infiltration is just icing on the cake...you can add not fixing that to J Edgar the Hypocrite's many crimes, sigh.
And I know gangsters are monsters, oh I do know very well, no matter how "spiffed up" they are, they are obscene scum who degrade and ruin entire communities...definitely need dealt with by "Rule .303"

Our literal barons, lol, used some crooked law but mostly willier propaganda, setting worker against worker and jingoism, we.know that for fact now due to cheques etc the sods used to fund BOTH sides of the vicious, murderous Sectarianism, sigh.
Thus UK had very bitter division of worker vs management which did NO ONE any good long term.

Some German companies were far smarter, either by humane leadership or simple smart pragmatism: having workers on the board defanged the communists, bettered working conditions and improved production!
Win win


Lol, UK and USA joining, had lots of good chats and laughs on that over the years on some forums
Was a shame the Revolution had to happen, but it was absolutely needed, not merely for the Revolutionary side, but for the world, hugely important event.
Benjamin Franklin is one of my heroes

Love the oft posted gag about the Queen telling Americans to use English properly etc

One of my fave alt history series is the superb
STARS AND STRIPES trilogy by Harry Harrison
Smug Victorians getting b*tchslapped by Yankees and Southerners, awesome sauce

Been writing a time travel/alt history story for a while when I'm up to it, about a Scottish military Engineer going back in time to help William Wallace win.
That I think is one of the most crucial points in history things could be changed for the better.
The Normans twisted British law and custom for the worse, so stomping their asses amongst other things, could guide a better outcome.
And as I point out, the real problem was never the "English" it was always our own feckless nobles.

DMcCunney wrote:I lived in Philadelphia (which was once the capital of what became the United States) during the run up to the 1976 Bicentennial Celebration. I was deeply amused to see a poster on a telephone pole saying "200 years was long enough to hold a grudge, and it was time for the colonies to resume their status as members of the British Empire and subjects of the Queen." It laid out the benefits accruing to both sides. The UK would get a huge economic shot in the arm. The US would get the benefit of a couple of millennia of tradition and practice. Governments might rise and fall, but the monarchy would still exist and everyone would still be subjects of her Majesty. I was tickled, and thought you could make a case for it, but I never did discover who was behind the poster.
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Dennis

mhicks wrote:SNIP

Come to think of it the first computers were punch cards designed by loomers for making exquisite patterns in cloth. My dad had boxes of punch cards he "programed" in college. He kept them thinking he would be able to use them again one day. I still have floppy disks from my college days but no machine reads them now.

I see the textile industry "programing"" the first punch cards. Small steps that will get the populous ready for the big leap to computers when they become available.

Michae wrote:On that note I see no reason why Charis wouldn't give the UP military tech as well. True they can always shuttle in guns and ammo by dirigible but the ability to manufacture as least the ammo for those guns on-site would be useful,as I can see the dirigibles being shot at either if war breaks out or some idiot attempting to stop supplies being delivered. As they do have those rockets floating around and them being mass-fired in the general direction of a dirigible, I'd be surprised if they didn't get at least one hit. After all fanatics don't always think about the results of such things.

SilverbladeTE wrote:

Some weapon tech, sure.
Smokeless powder...probably not, that's a HUGE game changer if enemies get the tech.

However...for the world to advance everyone needs the ability to.produce dynamite, Charis cannot supply the amounts needed for world industrialization!
So they may have to give other nations the knowledge of nitration chemistry...which eventually leads to TNT and cordite, though it would take many decades to develop stable smokeless propelllants, unless of course, it was stolen by a spy.

Bad enough if enemies get an advanced explosive for shells, far.worse if they get smokeless propellants.
And having Harchong factories producing bullets etc tech theft would eventually become inevitable.
You can bet many spies during the timeframe of Through Fiery Trials would be desperately trying to get smokeless powder info from Charis!

After the Hiaratha sabotage Charisian munitions factories probably have extreme security, over time though, any system fails.
Clyntahn's Rakurai showed everyone a means to.penetrate even Charisian security and you can bet that Mahry's and others are trying to set up tech theft and sabotage teams for the "long run"

Supplying ammo though for the wars to come in decades ahead may force the IC to set up such factories in Harchong though .

SilverbladeTE wrote:PeterZ

that's a fair point!

and you can't have dumb soldiers if you want a modern military, as Vietnam etc proved
McNamarra, grr!
so, educated military eventually becomes a weapon that turns on tyrants, ironically enough...*cough* Stalin....

so you increase likelihood of technical society and, give them the means for rebellion one day.

PeterZ wrote:By the end of the next book, the UP will be pushing past Dohlar in their manufacturing technology.

DMcCunney wrote:Unlikely. Dohlor is already well along in the development the UP needs to undertake, and fully understands why it's needed. (Among other things, it already has fairly substantial domestic steel making capability.) King Rahnyld was well schooled by Earl Thirsk, and will get behind it and push, and Dohlor is established enough that it won't need Armahk Plan help on the financing. Investors elsewhere (starting with Duke Delthak, but he won't be the only one) will pony up the money if Dohlor doesn't have what is needed internally.
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Dennis

PeterZ wrote:

PeterZ wrote:By the end of the next book, the UP will be pushing past Dohlar in their manufacturing technology.

DMcCunney wrote:Unlikely. Dohlor is already well along in the development the UP needs to undertake, and fully understands why it's needed. (Among other things, it already has fairly substantial domestic steel making capability.) King Rahnyld was well schooled by Earl Thirsk, and will get behind it and push, and Dohlor is established enough that it won't need Armahk Plan help on the financing. Investors elsewhere (starting with Duke Delthak, but he won't be the only one) will pony up the money if Dohlor doesn't have what is needed internally.
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Dennis

Dennis, I am rereading TFT. Dohlar had their first modern foundry and manufactory started in 901-902. The UP had their started in 905. Dohlar will have their manufactory up and running for 12-13 years using turbine powered pneumatic power tools. The UP will have their first foundry and manufactory up and running for 9 years. As I recall in 9 years Merlin took Charis from oar powered galleys to steam powered armored cruisers supported by 8-10 manufactories.

I can see Dohlar duplicating that feat and the UP exceeding that total. Recall that Boisseau has the lions share of Harchong's craftsmen. Harchong is renowned for having the best craftsmen on Safehold. That core group of craftsmen will be the backbone of the manufactory system. They will be the supervisors and trainers for all those serfs and peasants. Dohlar will be just behind because they won't have the same number of craftsmen. Heck, I doubt Charis had as many craftsmen as Boisseau.

Bottom line is that the UP will start off with more trained personnel and with a higher tech base than Charis did pre-Merlin. That argues for their going farther faster than Charis.