Hull number discrepancy

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In speaking of ship sizes and the SITS books (Which I haven't got), were they included in the "Great Resizing" on the CD's? Or do they date from the earlier time frame before things were adjusted?

Theemile wrote:The Great Resizing was done by the SITS people (Tom Pipe) when they were trying to build the rules for SITS. They tried to codify everything about ship design and found David's math was off. So the most mentioned ship stat, mass, was chosen as the base, and the ships were rebuilt with a density of ~.25.

Which is not to say everything in SITS or Jayne's is accurate. We have found several changes between it and HoS or later books, but their accuracy is >99%, so their data is worth mentioning, along with the caveat of their pedigree.

More information please. What does the acronym SITS represent? Where can I find the Jayne's books and the SITS books? I tried an internet search and could not get much past the definitions of "to sit".

tlb wrote:More information please. What does the acronym SITS represent? Where can I find the Jayne's books and the SITS books? I tried an internet search and could not get much past the definitions of "to sit".

SITS is "Saganami Island Tactical Simulator" - https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Saganami_Island_Tactical_Simulator

I don't know who Jayne is supposed to be, if a person, but Jayne's Intelligence Reviews are in-universe publications about military matters, existing as actual books in our universe, published in 2006 and 2007 after SITS - https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Jayne%27s_Intelligence_Review

There's an updated Jayne in House of Steel. It's the source of all the data I used in this thread, since I opened HoS in the Amazon Cloud Reader and went back and forth over the entries.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:More information please. What does the acronym SITS represent? Where can I find the Jayne's books and the SITS books? I tried an internet search and could not get much past the definitions of "to sit".

SITS is "Saganami Island Tactical Simulator" - https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Saganami_Island_Tactical_Simulator

I don't know who Jayne is supposed to be, if a person, but Jayne's Intelligence Reviews are in-universe publications about military matters, existing as actual books in our universe, published in 2006 and 2007 after SITS - https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Jayne%27s_Intelligence_Review

There's an updated Jayne in House of Steel. It's the source of all the data I used in this thread, since I opened HoS in the Amazon Cloud Reader and went back and forth over the entries.

SITS was available from Ad Astra Games - I no longer see it on their website and I don't even know if it is available. I have a collection of print and electronic copies of the game.

Jaynes, is the fictional 40th century version of Janes Defense Review - the ship identification Manual every ship has carried in the 20th century.

The 3 published parts of SITS each had a setting book and a Jayne's Ship book.

1st (Included in the Main Rule box) was a 1900/1902pd book with OBS and Grayson as a focus, as well as some of the Havenite threat.

2nd was 1903/4pd Silesia update focusing on the Silesian situation and the Andermani Imperial 5th Naval District (Silesian Station) and the ships assigned there. (No Capital ships)

3rd was 1904/1905 update forcued on the events of the SVW, Flushing out much of the Manty and Peep forces in the war.

There were 2 Jayne's Navy specific titles produced separately (RMN and PRH) forused on those navies on the brink of battle in 1905pd.

All these books mentioned most of the classes of sub-wallers in use at the time (some were released as special extra files not printed), and only 1 each of RMN and RHN DN and SD were mentioned (Majestic DN, King William SD, Neavou Paris DN, and Duquesne SD)

HOS included the ships in the RMN Jayne's books and updated the rest of the Fleet (and GSN) and brought the list up to 1920pd.

There is considerably more detail in the SITS and Jayne's that is not in HoS. All this was supposedly written or approved by David.

Theemile wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
There's an updated Jayne in House of Steel. It's the source of all the data I used in this thread, since I opened HoS in the Amazon Cloud Reader and went back and forth over the entries.

SITS was available from Ad Astra Games - I no longer see it on their website and I don't even know if it is available. I have a collection of print and electronic copies of the game.

Jaynes, is the fictional 40th century version of Janes Defense Review - the ship identification Manual every ship has carried in the 20th century.

The 3 published parts of SITS each had a setting book and a Jayne's Ship book.

1st (Included in the Main Rule box) was a 1900/1902pd book with OBS and Grayson as a focus, as well as some of the Havenite threat.

2nd was 1903/4pd Silesia update focusing on the Silesian situation and the Andermani Imperial 5th Naval District (Silesian Station) and the ships assigned there. (No Capital ships)

3rd was 1904/1905 update forcued on the events of the SVW, Flushing out much of the Manty and Peep forces in the war.

There were 2 Jayne's Navy specific titles produced separately (RMN and PRH) forused on those navies on the brink of battle in 1905pd.

All these books mentioned most of the classes of sub-wallers in use at the time (some were released as special extra files not printed), and only 1 each of RMN and RHN DN and SD were mentioned (Majestic DN, King William SD, Neavou Paris DN, and Duquesne SD)

HOS included the ships in the RMN Jayne's books and updated the rest of the Fleet (and GSN) and brought the list up to 1920pd.

There is considerably more detail in the SITS and Jayne's that is not in HoS. All this was supposedly written or approved by David.

Found it - SITS is now available from Final Sword Productions.

http://store.genreconnections.com/sits/

Theemile wrote:There is considerably more detail in the SITS and Jayne's that is not in HoS. All this was supposedly written or approved by David.

Can you give an example of what kind of details it had that HoS didn't?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Theemile wrote:There is considerably more detail in the SITS and Jayne's that is not in HoS. All this was supposedly written or approved by David.

Can you give an example of what kind of details it had that HoS didn't?

Each ship got a 2 page write-up with stats, details about class design and construction, and a paragraph or 2 about notable ships of the design. I can tell you the laser/ graser size and model on each ship mentioned, what missiles launchers used, the missile types, and how many are in the mags. I can tell you crew sizes and the # and type of small craft and drones carried in 1905. Etc....

They even mention small craft stats and some support ship stats.

I have a nice spreadsheet I made combining the details from all the books, listing the stats from over 200 designs. I need to do another full read through, because I know there are a handful of text derived details I lost in a version on a work computer I had to abandon suddenly.

Working through the more recent posts I was reminded that in the series we have seen the RMN in a more than one period of transition and change with massive technological leaps before and during the Haven conflitcts and the SLN/Alignment stuff. Prior to that it was the laser head and other changes.
With the repeated questions about frigates (FF) and the relationship to DDs, CL, CA, and BCs you have to look at this as changes -slow and fast- over time and the evolving needs plus preceived changes in tactics and actual changes in weapons.
Look at the opening period of WW II and the needs of convoy protection in the Atlantic as well as other places. While the German capital ships were a signifcant menace, a lot of the other merchant shipping problems in other places was caused by Q-ships and various medium warships striking at merchant shipping on the trade and supply lines of the British Empire. The submarine problem -German at least- is generaly talked about in the Atlantic and the Med with some conversation about the South Atlantic.
Pirates weren't a problem in the 20th century Atlantic that they were up through the early 19th century, but the commerce protection needs by the start of WW II demanded something to augment the overstreached Destroyers and CLs of the British Navy. There were three general ship type solutions to that (not including the later hunter-killer groups built around escort carriers with their DE and DD screens).
There wasn't much that would fit into the Honorverse pre Haveite War FF classification but anything that could float, could be faster than a convoy (to patrol around it) preferably already mounted guns and at least be retrofitted with depth charges and sub detection gear was put back into service.

The first answer was the Lend-Lease deal that traded 50 mothballed (and WW I era) US destroyers for base use etc. That essentialy provided England with funtional, if obsolete by the standards of the British in-commission destroyers, anti-submarine platforms that could provide protection against the U-boats. Well, could often detect them and try to either drive them off or kill them once they had attacked. The second was creating an English built class of Corvettes, based on whaleing ships of the same name that. NOT destroyers or destroyer escorts, these were not even frigates in the military sense but armed and configured to hang with convoys and try to kill U-boats. Lightly gunned, fast enough, cheap, carry a good load of depth charges and not built to stand up to much more than a sub. Standing up to the North Atlantic was certainly enough of a stuggle in itself. The third answer was using ships the size of Crusiers as convoy leaders and at least a chance of engaging one of the German surface raider warships as well as some anti-aircraft defence as they got to the European side of the Atlantic.

The Lend Lease Destroyers were certainly something that otherwise could have been sold off to smaller nations if the US had been in the market for that. I suspect that Manticore might have sold off some of it's FFs to trading partners as at least SDF and local commerce protection prior to the Havenite War to both support it's partners and raise money in it's buildup of it's own fleet. Used frigates, as then configured, could still have been used in more local settings by systems that were only worried about garden vairity pirates and having something with a lot more teeth and range than the typical LAC.
Just a thought.

Brigade XO wrote: I suspect that Manticore might have sold off some of it's FFs to trading partners as at least SDF and local commerce protection prior to the Havenite War to both support it's partners and raise money in it's buildup of it's own fleet. Used frigates, as then configured, could still have been used in more local settings by systems that were only worried about garden vairity pirates and having something with a lot more teeth and range than the typical LAC.
Just a thought.

Maybe, maybe not. We are told that the garden variety pirate had been creeping up in size. See previous discussion on this thread. I'd put my money on a RMN FF against a pirate FF any day, especially if those FFs are travelling in division strength. But if pirates are getting their hands on destroyers, it starts making sense to use destroyers for projection and commerce protection. It might be cheaper to operate one destroyer than a pair of frigates, with better chances of surviving.

In that scenario, the market for "certified pre-owned" frigates is dwindling to nothing. Especially if the RMN is also selling scores of used destroyers, to free up manpower for the new cruiser construction.

Maybe it would be better to remove weapons and military hardware and instead sell the hull to a civilian VIP transport operator. Larger than a courier, a frigate hull might serve well to transport some 20 VIPs in luxurious accommodations plus crew.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Brigade XO wrote: I suspect that Manticore might have sold off some of it's FFs to trading partners as at least SDF and local commerce protection prior to the Havenite War to both support it's partners and raise money in it's buildup of it's own fleet. Used frigates, as then configured, could still have been used in more local settings by systems that were only worried about garden vairity pirates and having something with a lot more teeth and range than the typical LAC.
Just a thought.

Maybe, maybe not. We are told that the garden variety pirate had been creeping up in size. See previous discussion on this thread. I'd put my money on a RMN FF against a pirate FF any day, especially if those FFs are travelling in division strength. But if pirates are getting their hands on destroyers, it starts making sense to use destroyers for projection and commerce protection. It might be cheaper to operate one destroyer than a pair of frigates, with better chances of surviving.

In that scenario, the market for "certified pre-owned" frigates is dwindling to nothing. Especially if the RMN is also selling scores of used destroyers, to free up manpower for the new cruiser construction.

Maybe it would be better to remove weapons and military hardware and instead sell the hull to a civilian VIP transport operator. Larger than a courier, a frigate hull might serve well to transport some 20 VIPs in luxurious accommodations plus crew.

@Theemile: Thanks for looking up the SITS.

@ThinksMarkedly: Size creep among pirates has been happening when the pirates get corporate or government sponsers, and they keep running into the RMN or Andies. Thus, in Silesia, ships are manufactured off the books and sold to pirates and/or secessionists. Also, Manpower, New Hamburg, and other slavers (and smugglers) have been giving heavier ships to the pirates IOT get some return on the investment. There hasn't been any of that elsewhere that we know of. The only episode of anti-piracy in the narrative for Talbott was because they were Peeps in Exile, operated by Manpower.

Otherwise, local navies (ie., Rembrandt) takes care of pirates all on their own.

FWIW, a frigate had almost the same crew requirement as a destroyer (pre-war), ~300 or so. So I hope you can put more than 20 people on it in comfort, when you convert it to civilian use. iirc, the Tankersley would take about a hundred passengers; it massed 55k tons. About the same as the local-built pirate Wayfarer stomped on in Silesia back in 1908? 1909? Losing the timeline, it was HAE, anyway.

A while ago, it you read it new back when.

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:


@Theemile: Thanks for looking up the SITS.

@ThinksMarkedly: Size creep among pirates has been happening when the pirates get corporate or government sponsers, and they keep running into the RMN or Andies. Thus, in Silesia, ships are manufactured off the books and sold to pirates and/or secessionists. Also, Manpower, New Hamburg, and other slavers (and smugglers) have been giving heavier ships to the pirates IOT get some return on the investment. There hasn't been any of that elsewhere that we know of. The only episode of anti-piracy in the narrative for Talbott was because they were Peeps in Exile, operated by Manpower.

Otherwise, local navies (ie., Rembrandt) takes care of pirates all on their own.

FWIW, a frigate had almost the same crew requirement as a destroyer (pre-war), ~300 or so. So I hope you can put more than 20 people on it in comfort, when you convert it to civilian use. iirc, the Tankersley would take about a hundred passengers; it massed 55k tons. About the same as the local-built pirate Wayfarer stomped on in Silesia back in 1908? 1909? Losing the timeline, it was HAE, anyway.

A while ago, it you read it new back when.

Rob

The 1 Frigate we have stats on has a crew of ~120. being an only data point, I don't know if it is indicative of the type. We know the crews of the Torch ships are small, but that is by design, and tech advances, and probably is no way indicative of classic Frigates.

DDs and CLs and similiar sizes of crews - buildup era Manty DD crews seem to be larger than Andy, Silly and Peep crews from the era - probably because they took prizes regularly. what could that mean for Manty FF crews?

Looking at the Manty errata - no FF classes survived the purge. None were reclassified a DD because they had a sufficient weapons fit to do so. Either the Author never thought of it (possibly) or EVERY FF was that pathetic that it couldn't be reclassified as a DD in a navy that still carried Nobelese DDs on it's roster.