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What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?

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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:53 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think that's it. It takes CAs (much less giant freighters) a fairly long time to recharge their hyper generators. But it apparently took just 4 minutes between transitions from Delta all the way through Gamma to Beta; and less than 10 minutes from Delta to n-space. Given it takes an SD (which admittedly is bigger than some freighters, but whose military grade hyper generator is probably also faster charging) 4 minutes, when already fully charged, from pressing the button to transition 10 minutes to make 2 additional transitions seems to leave no time for recharging. Hyper generator recharge time is more like 15+ minutes between use; and then the 4 minute transition time.

The Honor of the Queen wrote:“Mark!” DuMorne said crisply, and the normally inaudible hum of Fearless’s hyper generator became a basso growl.
Honor swallowed against a sudden ripple of nausea as the visual display altered abruptly. The endlessly shifting patterns of hyper space were no longer slow; they flickered, jumping about like poorly executed animation, and her readouts flashed steadily downward as the entire convoy plummeted “down” the hyper space gradient.
Fearless hit the gamma wall, and her Warshawski sails bled transit energy like an azure forest fire. Her velocity dropped almost instantly from .3 C to a mere nine percent of light-speed, and Honor’s stomach heaved as her inner ear rebelled against a speed loss the rest of her senses couldn’t even detect. DuMorne’s calculations had allowed for the energy bleed, and their translation gradient steepened even further as their velocity fell. They hit the beta wall four minutes later, and Honor winced again—less violently this time—as their velocity bled down to less than two percent of light-speed. The visual display was a fierce chaos of heaving light as the convoy fell straight “down” across a “distance” which had no physical existence, and then they hit the alpha bands and flashed across them to the n-space wall like a comet.


So I don't think the different hyper bands have different hyper limits; the hyper limit only seems to come into play when you want to cross into n-space. (Otherwise you'd have to worry that your mid-transit hyper level change might happen to coincide with this proposed upper-band hyper limit of some star that just happens to be along your route -- and there's been no indication of that)

Those numbers for charging times may only be relevant for upward translations. At the battle on the Prime terminus in UH, Sollie battle cruisers microjump up and down in four and a half minutes, far too short for the charge time you're postulating.

On an outbound passage a longer charge time wouldn't matter as much, as the ship loses most of it's velocity each time it translates, meaning it has to stay in each band for a while before it would clear the upper band hyper limit anyway. They're not going to be able to clear that second/third/etc. limit in 20 minutes anyway, so a longer charge time going up is irrelevant. Coming down, it's demonstrably not an issue.

As for accidentally hitting a "pot hole" while transitioning bands in transit, that would be highly unlikely for two reasons. First, space is really freakin' big and even the higher hyper limits on a star are very small by comparison. Second, hyper space compression would make the already very small hyper limit a very very very small pothole to a ship in hyper. Even if a star's Delta band hyper limit was 100 light minutes in real space, it would be just over 2.75 light seconds across for a ship in the Delta band, meaning they'd have to translate downward in exactly the wrong place in a window no more than five and a half seconds long before they passed clean through the danger. The danger window is even smaller for warships in higher bands. Even for an Alpha translation downward the danger zone for a normal star is only 20-40 seconds before you clear the hyper limit on the other side.

That said, it IS possible for a ship to hit that and come to grief. Ships are occasionally lost to unknown causes, but such hazards would be charted and known on well traveled routes. It would certainly be a concern in a binary system such as Manticore or near gas giants with their own hyper limits which would need to be avoided. In higher bands the Manticore system limits might look like a peanut where the two stars' hyper limits start overlapping.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:45 pm

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Joat42 wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I didn't mean that it would be needed for existence, only during the transition. You need that bubble of space around the ship so that the metric of space is retained from n-space to alpha and from one band to the next. But once you're there, the hyper generator can turn off and your atoms will not suddenly compress or fly apart.

I'm not so sure I'll buy the whole "bring a n-space bubble into hyperspace", especially since it has to move with an accelerating ship for it to work.


I don't think ships are still accelerating when then transition. It's easy to cut acceleration to zero a few milliseconds before the transition happens. Or a few seconds, for a safety margin.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by Joat42   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:52 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think ships are still accelerating when then transition. It's easy to cut acceleration to zero a few milliseconds before the transition happens. Or a few seconds, for a safety margin.

No, but the ships need to exist in a space/time-geometry that's decidedly different from n-space when traveling in hyper.

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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:23 am

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Joat42 wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think ships are still accelerating when then transition. It's easy to cut acceleration to zero a few milliseconds before the transition happens. Or a few seconds, for a safety margin.

No, but the ships need to exist in a space/time-geometry that's decidedly different from n-space when traveling in hyper.


The fact that a disabled ship, with no hypergenerator, wedge, sail or other systems running can exist in hyper indicates that only the transition is where metrics change. So any intrinsics properties that can destroy a ship only need to be mitigated by the hypergenerator.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by Joat42   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:13 am

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Joat42 wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't think ships are still accelerating when then transition. It's easy to cut acceleration to zero a few milliseconds before the transition happens. Or a few seconds, for a safety margin.

No, but the ships need to exist in a space/time-geometry that's decidedly different from n-space when traveling in hyper.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The fact that a disabled ship, with no hypergenerator, wedge, sail or other systems running can exist in hyper indicates that only the transition is where metrics change. So any intrinsics properties that can destroy a ship only need to be mitigated by the hypergenerator.

Which doesn't explain why the ship retains n-space geometry in hyperspace while at the same time it can use h-space geometry to shorten distances.

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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:48 pm

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Joat42 wrote:Which doesn't explain why the ship retains n-space geometry in hyperspace while at the same time it can use h-space geometry to shorten distances.


My argument, based on the fact that we know it works, is that the metric changes when you perform the transition and once that is over, the ship and its interior are in sync with the local universe. The equipment that is used to transition between bands is the hypergenerator, therefore the hypergenerator must be doing that matching.

The dimensions of the ship are measured in whatever local conditions it finds itself in, even if the metrics in other bands would be different. So a ship that is 400 m long in the alpha band would measure a 24.8 km length in n-space. That means that two ships aligned bow-to-stern transitioning from n-space to alpha need to be at least 25 km apart to survive.

The size of the wedges need not be included in this account. Either they're turned off when the transition happens, or the hypergenerator bubble never included them in the first place. They get re-generated by the remetrified impellers in the next band, so they have the dimensions that their power would dictate in those conditions as if no transition had happened.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:20 pm

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Hyperspace is like Los Vegas.
What happens in hyperspace stays in hyperspace.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by kzt   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:51 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
The size of the wedges need not be included in this account. Either they're turned off when the transition happens, or the hypergenerator bubble never included them in the first place. They get re-generated by the remetrified impellers in the next band, so they have the dimensions that their power would dictate in those conditions as if no transition had happened.


The drawback of that theory is that you get instantly destroyed in a grav wave. And there is a speed of plot delay in erecting a wedge.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:05 pm

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kzt wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:
The size of the wedges need not be included in this account. Either they're turned off when the transition happens, or the hypergenerator bubble never included them in the first place. They get re-generated by the remetrified impellers in the next band, so they have the dimensions that their power would dictate in those conditions as if no transition had happened.


The drawback of that theory is that you get instantly destroyed in a grav wave. And there is a speed of plot delay in erecting a wedge.


Ok, good point. That makes the first option impossible, but the second one is still allowed: If you're in a system that exists in a grav wave, you shut down your wedge, transition to sails, then transition from n-space to alpha. The sails are not included in the bubble, but the hypergenerator bubble keeps the ship intact while the transition itself is happening, but once it's done, the sails snap into place.
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Re: What happens in Hyperspace near a Star?
Post by tlb   » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:32 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:The size of the wedges need not be included in this account. Either they're turned off when the transition happens, or the hypergenerator bubble never included them in the first place. They get re-generated by the remetrified impellers in the next band, so they have the dimensions that their power would dictate in those conditions as if no transition had happened.

kzt wrote:The drawback of that theory is that you get instantly destroyed in a grav wave. And there is a speed of plot delay in erecting a wedge.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Ok, good point. That makes the first option impossible, but the second one is still allowed: If you're in a system that exists in a grav wave, you shut down your wedge, transition to sails, then transition from n-space to alpha. The sails are not included in the bubble, but the hypergenerator bubble keeps the ship intact while the transition itself is happening, but once it's done, the sails snap into place.

In the battle of Sidemore, the ship that transitioned to call in the force waiting in hyper was noted as transitioning into hyper without alerting the Havenite force. Doesn't that mean that the sails cannot be active before the transition? I assume that they can be detected the same as a wedge. Or is that incorrect?
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