OFS vs SLN

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:56 pm
tlb Fleet Admiral Posts: 4441 Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am	Armed Neo-Bob wrote:When I am bored, I search the forums under various search terms for posts by the author. In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved. The gist, iirc, was that the SLN thought no one would put more resources into gathering intel on Manticore than Haven, and that the Solarian military contractors (all, of course, in violation of the embargo) would keep them apprised of anything important. As was shown several times in text (SftS and later) the officers of the SLN were frequently related to the people in the transtellars. ymmv. regards, Rob Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful. This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.
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by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:56 pm

tlb
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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:When I am bored, I search the forums under various search terms for posts by the author.

In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved.

The gist, iirc, was that the SLN thought no one would put more resources into gathering intel on Manticore than Haven, and that the Solarian military contractors (all, of course, in violation of the embargo) would keep them apprised of anything important.

As was shown several times in text (SftS and later) the officers of the SLN were frequently related to the people in the transtellars.

ymmv. regards, Rob

Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful.

This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by TFLYTSNBN » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:05 pm
TFLYTSNBN	tlb wrote: Armed Neo-Bob wrote:When I am bored, I search the forums under various search terms for posts by the author. In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved. The gist, iirc, was that the SLN thought no one would put more resources into gathering intel on Manticore than Haven, and that the Solarian military contractors (all, of course, in violation of the embargo) would keep them apprised of anything important. As was shown several times in text (SftS and later) the officers of the SLN were frequently related to the people in the transtellars. ymmv. regards, Rob Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful. This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser. If the SLN hadgotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by TFLYTSNBN » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:05 pm

TFLYTSNBN

tlb wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:When I am bored, I search the forums under various search terms for posts by the author.

In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved.

The gist, iirc, was that the SLN thought no one would put more resources into gathering intel on Manticore than Haven, and that the Solarian military contractors (all, of course, in violation of the embargo) would keep them apprised of anything important.

As was shown several times in text (SftS and later) the officers of the SLN were frequently related to the people in the transtellars.

ymmv. regards, Rob

Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful.

This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.

If the SLN hadgotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by Castenea » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:12 pm
Castenea Captain of the List Posts: 671 Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:21 pm Location: MD	tlb wrote:Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful. This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser. No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written. I would expect that there would also be a lot of self-confirmed intel that happened to tell what the boss wanted, and any OFS governor who wanted timely and accurate intel on what was going on near his sector (e.g. a rebellion that they could exploit) would have his own intel shop, as sending back to Earth would result in info that was at best old, at worst fantasy.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by Castenea » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:12 pm

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tlb wrote:Not that I doubt you, but could you give a better pointer to this thread? When not watching World Cup matches I have tried searching through the forum to find what RFC said exactly and so far I am unsuccessful.

This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.

No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written.

I would expect that there would also be a lot of self-confirmed intel that happened to tell what the boss wanted, and any OFS governor who wanted timely and accurate intel on what was going on near his sector (e.g. a rebellion that they could exploit) would have his own intel shop, as sending back to Earth would result in info that was at best old, at worst fantasy.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:14 pm
tlb Fleet Admiral Posts: 4441 Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am	TFLYTSNBN wrote:If the SLN had gotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit. By superior, do you just mean bigger?
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:14 pm

tlb
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:If the SLN had gotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit.

By superior, do you just mean bigger?

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by kzt » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:16 pm
kzt Fleet Admiral Posts: 11360 Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm Location: Albuquerque, NM	Castenea wrote:No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written. No, you promote efficient and accurate people out of HQ and somewhere less visible, where they will be kept busy. Give the CDR a CL or CA out on the backside of nowhere, far from the RMN or RHN. Or a senior staff job on a DD or cruiser squadron, again somewhere far away.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by kzt » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:16 pm

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Castenea wrote:No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written.

No, you promote efficient and accurate people out of HQ and somewhere less visible, where they will be kept busy. Give the CDR a CL or CA out on the backside of nowhere, far from the RMN or RHN. Or a senior staff job on a DD or cruiser squadron, again somewhere far away.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:30 pm
tlb Fleet Admiral Posts: 4441 Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am	Castenea wrote:No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written. kzt wrote:No, you promote efficient and accurate people out of HQ and somewhere less visible, where they will be kept busy. Give the CDR a CL or CA out on the backside of nowhere, far from the RMN or RHN. Or a senior staff job on a DD or cruiser squadron, again somewhere far away. That could work to get them out of a position with responsibility for intelligence. But remember before Byng, Crandall or Filareta, Battle Fleet was almost never very far away. You could also make them a liaison officer with an interstellar corporation that would be doing military work, expecting that they will be corrupted or co-opted.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by tlb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:30 pm

tlb
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Castenea wrote:No need to disappear people with any frequency, all you need is a few people in the personnel office. Experts in a subject (like Manticore) where you do not want accurate intel on, are either not hired, or if they are hired, promoted slowly if at all. You only need to kill an agent who realizes that someone is deliberately making their reports inaccurate, no need to futz with a report that never was written.

kzt wrote:No, you promote efficient and accurate people out of HQ and somewhere less visible, where they will be kept busy. Give the CDR a CL or CA out on the backside of nowhere, far from the RMN or RHN. Or a senior staff job on a DD or cruiser squadron, again somewhere far away.

That could work to get them out of a position with responsibility for intelligence. But remember before Byng, Crandall or Filareta, Battle Fleet was almost never very far away.

You could also make them a liaison officer with an interstellar corporation that would be doing military work, expecting that they will be corrupted or co-opted.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by Weird Harold » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:57 pm
Weird Harold Fleet Admiral Posts: 4478 Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm Location: "Lost Wages", NV	Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved. tlb wrote:This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser. TFLYTSNBN wrote:If the SLN hadgotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit. MAlign agents weren't needed. Manticore was basically ignored pre-war and astrogragpy tool care of what espionage ignorance didn't. Pre-war, Mancicore was seen as a lightweight snack for Haven. The emphasis for the MAlighn was on putting obstacles in Haven's way to bleed Haven as it gobbled up Manticore. The SLN was kept as a 'mushroom farm' and what intel was gathered by Haven wasn't passed on to anyone except the MAligh until it had been heavily edited. It wasn't until Manticore started winning that the MAligh took notice and started looking for intel on Manticore and were behind the power-curve for the rest of the series. Manitcore was dismissed by pretty much everyone at the start and scrambled to catch up intet-wise. . . . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by Weird Harold » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:57 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved.

tlb wrote:This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If the SLN hadgotten direct intelligence on the RMN rather than through Haven, then the SLN with its superior technology base and vastly superior industrial base would have popped the RHN like a zit.

MAlign agents weren't needed. Manticore was basically ignored pre-war and astrogragpy tool care of what espionage ignorance didn't.

Pre-war, Mancicore was seen as a lightweight snack for Haven. The emphasis for the MAlighn was on putting obstacles in Haven's way to bleed Haven as it gobbled up Manticore. The SLN was kept as a 'mushroom farm' and what intel was gathered by Haven wasn't passed on to anyone except the MAligh until it had been heavily edited.

It wasn't until Manticore started winning that the MAligh took notice and started looking for intel on Manticore and were behind the power-curve for the rest of the series. Manitcore was dismissed by pretty much everyone at the start and scrambled to catch up intet-wise.

.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by tlb » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:15 pm
tlb Fleet Admiral Posts: 4441 Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am	Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved. tlb wrote:This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser. Weird Harold wrote:MAlign agents weren't needed. Manticore was basically ignored pre-war and astrogragpy tool care of what espionage ignorance didn't. Pre-war, Mancicore was seen as a lightweight snack for Haven. The emphasis for the MAlighn was on putting obstacles in Haven's way to bleed Haven as it gobbled up Manticore. The SLN was kept as a 'mushroom farm' and what intel was gathered by Haven wasn't passed on to anyone except the MAligh until it had been heavily edited. It wasn't until Manticore started winning that the MAligh took notice and started looking for intel on Manticore and were behind the power-curve for the rest of the series. Manitcore was dismissed by pretty much everyone at the start and scrambled to catch up intet-wise. What Armed Neo-Bob reported is RFC saying that Manticore was NOT ignored before the Havenite war. Further that the SLN assisted the RHN in preparing for the war. Essentially that resentment of Manticore resulted in secret assistance to eliminate Manticore. Finally that it was only after the war started that the SLN became blind to what was going on in that quadrant.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by tlb » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:15 pm

tlb
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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:In a post related to Solarian intelligence and why it wasn't totally stupid for the SLN to be as ignorant as they ended up, RFC posted on this forum that the SLN depended on Haven for its pre-war intel assessment of Manticoran capabilities; that the SLN was complicit in Haven's prewar military build-up; that the Sollies assisted in the designs of the second generation warships including the Mars and Warlord classes; and that Technodyne was only one of many Solarian corporations involved.

tlb wrote:This may be what the SLN believed, but it seems dumb to think that way. Further it would mean that immediately prewar there were SLN officers who wanted intelligence gathering on Manticore and it did not take long for them all to disappear. How, did Malign agents have them killed? Why would they do that since the hidden plan was for Haven to fight the Solarian League. Curiouser and curiouser.

Weird Harold wrote:MAlign agents weren't needed. Manticore was basically ignored pre-war and astrogragpy tool care of what espionage ignorance didn't.

Pre-war, Mancicore was seen as a lightweight snack for Haven. The emphasis for the MAlighn was on putting obstacles in Haven's way to bleed Haven as it gobbled up Manticore. The SLN was kept as a 'mushroom farm' and what intel was gathered by Haven wasn't passed on to anyone except the MAligh until it had been heavily edited.

It wasn't until Manticore started winning that the MAligh took notice and started looking for intel on Manticore and were behind the power-curve for the rest of the series. Manitcore was dismissed by pretty much everyone at the start and scrambled to catch up intet-wise.

What Armed Neo-Bob reported is RFC saying that Manticore was NOT ignored before the Havenite war. Further that the SLN assisted the RHN in preparing for the war. Essentially that resentment of Manticore resulted in secret assistance to eliminate Manticore. Finally that it was only after the war started that the SLN became blind to what was going on in that quadrant.

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by cthia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:32 am
cthia Fleet Admiral Posts: 14951 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm	Any entity that can prevent the grapevine from spilling its juice, is a bad ass. Perhaps the MA engineered a new kind of grape that's resistant to gossip. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by cthia » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:32 am

cthia
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Any entity that can prevent the grapevine from spilling its juice, is a bad ass. Perhaps the MA engineered a new kind of grape that's resistant to gossip.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense

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Re: OFS vs SLN
by Castenea » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:23 pm
Castenea Captain of the List Posts: 671 Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:21 pm Location: MD	tlb wrote:What Armed Neo-Bob reported is RFC saying that Manticore was NOT ignored before the Havenite war. Further that the SLN assisted the RHN in preparing for the war. Essentially that resentment of Manticore resulted in secret assistance to eliminate Manticore. Finally that it was only after the war started that the SLN became blind to what was going on in that quadrant. It was not once the first war started that the League was blinded but the end of the first war that blinded them to events in Manticore. I believe there is text ev that much of the intel relationship between the SL and Haven was transactional, basically SL goodies in return for intel on Manticores latest equip. With the end of the first war there were no new goodies for Haven to sell, less demand for the latest SL tech, and at least some of the people who were part of the link between the SL and Haven were purged by the Prichart Government. By the start of the Second War Haven is building its own better than SL goodies, thus is not interested in sending intel findings to a third party.
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Re: OFS vs SLN

by Castenea » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:23 pm

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tlb wrote:What Armed Neo-Bob reported is RFC saying that Manticore was NOT ignored before the Havenite war. Further that the SLN assisted the RHN in preparing for the war. Essentially that resentment of Manticore resulted in secret assistance to eliminate Manticore. Finally that it was only after the war started that the SLN became blind to what was going on in that quadrant.

It was not once the first war started that the League was blinded but the end of the first war that blinded them to events in Manticore. I believe there is text ev that much of the intel relationship between the SL and Haven was transactional, basically SL goodies in return for intel on Manticores latest equip. With the end of the first war there were no new goodies for Haven to sell, less demand for the latest SL tech, and at least some of the people who were part of the link between the SL and Haven were purged by the Prichart Government. By the start of the Second War Haven is building its own better than SL goodies, thus is not interested in sending intel findings to a third party.

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