Post League Eridani

tlb wrote:I doubt that is a correct interpretation of what is required by the Deneb Accords. Honor did not get to kill the crews of the ships that scrubbed their computers after her demand.

Does not follow.

When Honor was attacking Sol she said she would kill people if she found the computers scrubbed. Scrubbing stuff, then surrendering was not an option. So unless you doubt Honor's interpretation...

Jonathan_S wrote:Lacoon Two did seize control of termini -- for the purpose of denying the transit of League ships after the Crandall and her battle fleet detachment unilaterally initiated combat against Manticore. At that point there was a de-facto state of war and I don't think the League would get very far trying to convict captured RMN officers of piracy given that that was a very measured response to receiving a casus belli. At least initially they weren't even capturing

The League might not get very far in arguing that sort of case, but the RF is in an excellent position to make a PR push that the Grand Alliance (and Old League) have descended to piracy.

As a bonus they can charge Manticore's entire military for piracy. Even government and anyone who provides material support to Manticore. It would lay the ground work for Manticore's extermination.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't recall it being specifically stated but they were probably respecting the freedom of navigation of neutrally flagged shipping; making it a very targeted response to League aggression.

First, Manticore doesn't believe that freedom of navigation exists with respect to wormhole termini. That's a League thing. Second, they captured neutral stations and neutral territory, which is the opposite of a targeted response. Its equivalent to Operation Buccaneer, if not on the same scale.

Jonathan_S wrote:But ultimately the rules of war (and RFC has talked about this is the past) are backed by threat of retaliation. You avoid violating them because ultimately if you do your opponent has little reason to avoid violating them back.

Exactly.

Which is why the Eridani Edict is dead. Manticore violated it at Mesa when the nuke went off in Green Pines and the building Manticore's terrorists were using as a base. (Plus the other nukes that the GA has been framed for.) Darius has no reason not to exterminate Manticore and all its population. Especially if the MA can convince the New League to exclude Grand Alliance from the New Edict.

They don't even need to lie about it. Manticore* nuked Mesa. The League failed to put an end to Manticore's insane government. So they protected the galaxy. Anyone else who nukes civilians gets the same treatment.

*The nuke they used to cover their escape was one. The nuke they gave to a crazed terrorist was another. If you give a nuke to someone you know is planning to nuke civilian targets, you are guilty if they nuke the wrong civilians. The nukes they got framed for are just icing on the cake.

tlb wrote:I doubt that is a correct interpretation of what is required by the Deneb Accords. Honor did not get to kill the crews of the ships that scrubbed their computers after her demand.

quite possibly a cat wrote:Does not follow.

When Honor was attacking Sol she said she would kill people if she found the computers scrubbed. Scrubbing stuff, then surrendering was not an option. So unless you doubt Honor's interpretation...

On page 43 of UH, you can read that there were members of Filareta's force that scrubbed their computers and are now in punishment quarters; so despite what Honor may have said their surrender was accepted.

I doubt Honor's follow through, since it would be counter to the Deneb Accords. The closest that Honor comes to killing someone that had been captured was that Masadan officer after she learned what happened to the RMN prisoners that were in his control.

quite possibly a cat wrote:<snip>
Which is why the Eridani Edict is dead. Manticore violated it at Mesa when the nuke went off in Green Pines and the building Manticore's terrorists were using as a base. (Plus the other nukes that the GA has been framed for.) Darius has no reason not to exterminate Manticore and all its population. Especially if the MA can convince the New League to exclude Grand Alliance from the New Edict.

They don't even need to lie about it. Manticore* nuked Mesa. The League failed to put an end to Manticore's insane government. So they protected the galaxy. Anyone else who nukes civilians gets the same treatment.

*The nuke they used to cover their escape was one. The nuke they gave to a crazed terrorist was another. If you give a nuke to someone you know is planning to nuke civilian targets, you are guilty if they nuke the wrong civilians. The nukes they got framed for are just icing on the cake.

What happened on Mesa wasn't an EE violation, which RFC has explained.

Also, the nuke wasn't handed over to a crazed terrorist, it was handed to a local group which in turn gave it to an emotionally unstable person who didn't follow order.

quite possibly a cat wrote:<snip>
Which is why the Eridani Edict is dead. Manticore violated it at Mesa when the nuke went off in Green Pines and the building Manticore's terrorists were using as a base. (Plus the other nukes that the GA has been framed for.) Darius has no reason not to exterminate Manticore and all its population. Especially if the MA can convince the New League to exclude Grand Alliance from the New Edict.

They don't even need to lie about it. Manticore* nuked Mesa. The League failed to put an end to Manticore's insane government. So they protected the galaxy. Anyone else who nukes civilians gets the same treatment.

*The nuke they used to cover their escape was one. The nuke they gave to a crazed terrorist was another. If you give a nuke to someone you know is planning to nuke civilian targets, you are guilty if they nuke the wrong civilians. The nukes they got framed for are just icing on the cake.

Joat42 wrote:What happened on Mesa wasn't an EE violation, which RFC has explained.

Also, the nuke wasn't handed over to a crazed terrorist, it was handed to a local group which in turn gave it to an emotionally unstable person who didn't follow order.

"Quite possibly a cat" is saying that the League thinks that Manticore is responsible for all of the nuclear detonations and that would rise to the nature of an EE violation. Actually I was surprised by two things that RFC said: first was that the Green Pines bomb was "too small" to be an EE violation by itself and second was that Cachet and Zilwicki's criminal responsibility for the bomb (by disabling the tracking beacon) did not result in military command responsibility (because the seccie did not follow orders).

The nuke that was used to hide their escape did not kill anyone (so far as we know), it was intended to wipe out DNA tracking in an abandoned building.

The group they used can definitely be called a terrorist organization. The only reason that the Green Pines location was originally discarded was that the bomber would not be able to escape.

Actually Manticore should not be perceived as responsible for any blast prior to their fleet arriving at Mesa. The authorities have been blaming the earlier nukes on the Audubon Ballroom and Zilwicki has an official relationship with Torch; so it is Torch that should suspected of responsibility.

tlb wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:<snip>
Which is why the Eridani Edict is dead. Manticore violated it at Mesa when the nuke went off in Green Pines and the building Manticore's terrorists were using as a base. (Plus the other nukes that the GA has been framed for.) Darius has no reason not to exterminate Manticore and all its population. Especially if the MA can convince the New League to exclude Grand Alliance from the New Edict.

They don't even need to lie about it. Manticore* nuked Mesa. The League failed to put an end to Manticore's insane government. So they protected the galaxy. Anyone else who nukes civilians gets the same treatment.

*The nuke they used to cover their escape was one. The nuke they gave to a crazed terrorist was another. If you give a nuke to someone you know is planning to nuke civilian targets, you are guilty if they nuke the wrong civilians. The nukes they got framed for are just icing on the cake.

Joat42 wrote:What happened on Mesa wasn't an EE violation, which RFC has explained.

Also, the nuke wasn't handed over to a crazed terrorist, it was handed to a local group which in turn gave it to an emotionally unstable person who didn't follow order.

"Quite possibly a cat" is saying that the League thinks that Manticore is responsible for all of the nuclear detonations and that would rise to the nature of an EE violation. Actually I was surprised by two things that RFC said: first was that the Green Pines bomb was "too small" to be an EE violation by itself and second was that Cachet and Zilwicki's criminal responsibility for the bomb (by disabling the tracking beacon) did not result in military command responsibility (because the seccie did not follow orders).

The nuke that was used to hide their escape did not kill anyone (so far as we know), it was intended to wipe out DNA tracking in an abandoned building.

The group they used can definitely be called a terrorist organization. The only reason that the Green Pines location was originally discarded was that the bomber would not be able to escape.

Actually Manticore should not be perceived as responsible for any blast prior to their fleet arriving at Mesa. The authorities have been blaming the earlier nukes on the Audubon Ballroom and Zilwicki has an official relationship with Torch; so it is Torch that should suspected of responsibility.

Given Honorverse technology, nuclear explosives are not neccessarily WMD that meet the threshold of EE violations.
Warships routinely lob hundreds, thousands and even tens of thousands of nukes at each other, but this is normal.

Nuking an occupied residential tower might be sn EE violation but nuking an unoccupied building or a military headquarters is not.

Can someone post the Erani Edict if someone have it at hand?

My guess is, that the EE only speaks of orbital bombing, not terrorists on the ground.

Maldorian wrote:Can someone post the Erani Edict if someone have it at hand?

My guess is, that the EE only speaks of orbital bombing, not terrorists on the ground.

This is what KZT posted some time ago:

kzt wrote:The one that prohibits the use of ALL WMDs against civilians.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/0

" The Eridani Edict has some points in common with the rule of the "practicable breach." Essentially, the Eridani Edict says that no star nation may engage in the wholesale and wanton slaughter of civilian populations using any weapon of mass destruction. The actual language of the edict is clearly oriented towards nuclear or kinetic strikes, but it applies more to the intent and purpose of the weapon than to its actual characteristics, except inasmuch as those characteristics may define the… controlability of its area of effect."

Here are several notes from the Pearls:
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/134-ground-warfare.html
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/44-masa ... ni-ed.html
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/43-expa ... ridan.html
And here is where RFC discusses whether the Green Pines bomb is an EE violation:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9819&start=50

You might be on point with the mention of terrorists, because they need not be affiliated with a star nation.

Here is a post by RFC on the Honorverse and the rule of law:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/268/1

Lacoon II captured a lot of wormholes and only a few (well, ONE that was mentioned) that were specificaly owned by members of the SL.
Why did they do that?
1st answer is to deny the SL the ability to continue to move ships (and goods and people) through those wormholes and so to cripple the ability of the SL/SLN to move goods and hurt it's economies. While they were not siezing SL flagged ships, they were screwing with the ability of those ships to move between destinations. Note that they continued to let non-SL flagged ship use the wormholes so there was trade moving in the SL out beyond those choke points but at a much reduced volume and the logistis of the SLN and all the SL systems were screwed up.
The 2nd reason for doing Lacoon II was to deny the SLN the ability to use those same chains of wormhole bridges to shorten their attack lines against Manticore. Sure, Filerta gathered a fleet way the hell out of normal channels but he did get a lot of shipping (and warships) to his gathering point using existing wormhole routes. Also, yes, there is that other whole fleet supposed to be ready to try SLN attacks Manticore Home System II....that isn't likely to happen now.
What we do see Manticore doing is defending the wormholes they have seized against SLN attacks. Amoung other things, that protects the systems on the far side of the bridge though perhaps not the one on the the side the SLN attacks--but they seemed to be too busy to lay waste to those systems and probably thought they might need to use them themselvs who why destory things you are going to probably need
What it also allows Manticore to do is massivly bleed the SLN by destroying a lot of warships and killing or capturing many thousands of trained and experienced crews. That hurts the further ability of the SLN to- at the time- keep throwing attacks at Manticore.
You can look at it as a fairly complicated sets of defence in depth down multiple chains of wormhole bridges. Your enemy breaks his teeth and keeps loosing (killed or captured) all those trained people while RMN can mostly either hold the prepared positions or move back in an orderly manner to the next point of defense. You do relize that every time the SLN could be sucessfull at pushing a RMN picket/defensive force off the "SL end" of a wormhole bridge, it would then have to both put a blocking force on it and send a serious attacking force THROUGH HYPERSPACE to try and drive the RMN off that other end.