Stuff you just can't make up

Daryl wrote:For The E, I'm not sure how even in a perfect communist state you can get around the dissatisfaction of working and renting. Does it really matter if it is the state that employs you or houses you? I've worked both for private employers and as a public (civil) servant for the state, and found the situation to be similar.

Because, and you might not have realized this, you were still working in a capitalist environment, even while being employed by the government. There is no real difference between the two in a capitalist environment when evaluating the power differentials.

True communism completely changes the relationships. Whereas before, you had employers who own the means of production and use their ownership of those means to extract labour from their employees (who, not owning the means of production themselves, need to cooperation of a capitalist to reap a benefit from their labour), you now have the means of production in collective ownership; A worker no longer needs to offer his labour to a capitalist in order to benefit from it, but can use this collective asset pool to do so.

Communism, in this idealized form, isn't just "replace capitalists with the state". It is a far more fundamental change in how assets and ressources are distributed.

As a landlord I do try to keep my tenants happy as an empty house is not paying me anything. Surely you don't expect the state to supply free housing?

At the most basic level, yes, I do. Basic housing should be free; noone should be homeless.

that moment when you can't decide what's funnier: the reflexive bigotry or the illiteracy.

...what is this i don't even...

Sadly, it doesn't seem to be the worst thing I've heard of. We've had people getting ladies to sign petitions against Women's Suffrage (aka the right to vote), in favor of forcing people to register if they wish to use Hydrogen Hydroxide (water) and even legally changing the value of pi to 3 (India did that one).

Even so...
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... I got nothin'.

What the Western world uses for numerals are called Arabic numerals to distinguish them from Roman numerals, what the Arabs use are called Hindi numerals.

George J. Smith wrote:What the Western world uses for numerals are called Arabic numerals to distinguish them from Roman numerals, what the Arabs use are called Hindi numerals.

I recall reading somewhere that some genius actually developed algorithms to add, subtract, multiply and decide using Roman numerals.

Bless the Arabs for inventing Arabic numerals.

Bless the Arabs for inventing the process to distill alcahol.

Curse the Arabs for inventing Islam which forbids the consumption of alcohol.

From memory Alabama went within a vote of declaring that pi equaled 3.
Some County in the US banned solar panels so as to not drain the sun.

gcomeau wrote:And that number is as high as it is specifically because of the laws gun rights supporters insist be in place to supposedly "protect" people.

Rights do not create criminals. If you really intended to make that argument I have to consider you appallingly stupid.

All of the 'laws that are in place' exist to TAKE GUNS AWAY from certain groups of 'undesirable' people. The history of those laws is a long litany of racism and abuse. Our right to own the means of self-defense is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution, a right the founders thought was second in importance only to the rights of free speech, free exercise of religion, assembly, petition, and the free press.

The E wrote:At the most basic level, yes, I do. Basic housing should be free; noone should be homeless.

I knew we’d be seeing that one — the favorite fundamental communist/socialist lie. The pretense that shifting costs and forcing somebody else to pay them makes everything free.

NOTHING IS FREE!!

Only an idiot or a scoundrel would say that anything is free. SOMEbody has to pay for everything that requires resources or labor. SOMEbody has to pay for that housing. If not the people living there, then who? Somebody else should be forced to pay, and receive nothing in return? THAT is the essence of communism and socialism.

My tenant pays rent. In exchange, I provide her a place to live, pay all the bills, and do all the work. Last week, I repaired the patio wall, replaced the kitchen faucet, and fixed a few other things. From that perspective, I’m working for her.

Owning the property gives me a vested interest in keeping it up. If the place gets run down, that decreases the value of my property. The tenant benefits as much as I do.

Bureaucrats in charge of government housing don’t have any interest or investment in the property. They don’t lose anything when they let the place degenerate into a squalid vermin-infested crime-ridden shithole. It’s ‘free’ so the residents don’t give a rat’s ass either. We’ve got that. We call ‘em The Projects. We don’t need any more.

The E wrote:How many days, on average per year, are you training to defend yourself against an assailant?

I had training in the military, and I used to shoot quite a bit, for fun. It’s getting harder, though. Government regulations have made operating a shooting range such an expensive pain in the ass that most have closed down, along with all the public shooting areas. Ammunition prices have gone way up, mainly because of useless government regulations. They’re taking the fun out of shooting.

What am I saying — government takes all the fun out of everything.

The E wrote:Insisting that the only "reasonable" response to there being people willing to kill is to be willing to kill yourself sounds pretty fucking savage and uncivilized to me.

The only thing more fucking savage and uncivilized than some violent criminal trying to kill me is if the bastard succeeds. That is less likely to happen if I have a gun.

The E wrote:"Should schools in America teach Arabic Numerals as part of their curriculum?"

that moment when you can't decide what's funnier: the reflexive bigotry or the illiteracy.

Yep. Behold the results of our ‘free’ government education! We pay a fortune, and this is what we get. Our schools were not nearly this fucked up forty years ago, before we spent over $1.7 trillion on Jimmy Carter’s Department Of Education.

There are about two overpaid bureaucrats for every teacher, and they’ve got huge, powerful unions (with mandatory membership) that make it impossible to fire the corrupt and incompetent ones. It’s barely possible to fire the ones that have been convicted of molesting the students! Even then, we still have to pay them pensions for life.

Is it any wonder I expect the government to fuck up everything it touches? And I haven't been disappointed yet!

Imaginos1892 wrote:I knew we’d be seeing that one — the favorite fundamental communist/socialist lie. The pretense that shifting costs and forcing somebody else to pay them makes everything free.

Oh no, look at me, I am utterly DESTROYED and DEVASTATED by your superior capitalist LOGIC and REASON.

Or am I just disappointed and tired at you trying to spin simple answers relying on common shorthand with well-understood meanings as large fails on my part?

Who can say! It's a mystery.

Only an idiot or a scoundrel would say that anything is free. SOMEbody has to pay for everything that requires resources or labor. SOMEbody has to pay for that housing. If not the people living there, then who? Somebody else should be forced to pay, and receive nothing in return? THAT is the essence of communism and socialism.

Please, do explain how you get nothing in return for reducing the number of homeless people in the world. While you're at it, make sure to explain how tax-funded education (which, like public housing, is "free at point of purchase") and ensuring that everyone has basic education is a bad thing that you get nothing from.

The E wrote:How many days, on average per year, are you training to defend yourself against an assailant?

I had training in the military, and I used to shoot quite a bit, for fun. It’s getting harder, though. Government regulations have made operating a shooting range such an expensive pain in the ass that most have closed down, along with all the public shooting areas. Ammunition prices have gone way up, mainly because of useless government regulations. They’re taking the fun out of shooting.

What am I saying — government takes all the fun out of everything.

So the answer to my questions is "no, I don't actually put in the hours to ensure that I am capable of using my firearms to safely and accurately defend myself or others against attackers". Thank you.

The only thing more fucking savage and uncivilized than some violent criminal trying to kill me is if the bastard succeeds. That is less likely to happen if I have a gun.

No, statistically speaking, you're far more likely to hurt yourself or others accidentally.

Strange how things work out, but in this discussion I'm more on Imaginos's side than The E's.
People value what they have to pay for, even if it is heavily subsidised. What the UK calls "Council Houses" we call "State Housing Commission Houses". They are owned by the State and are rented out at below commercial rates to those who are poor for whatever reason. They used to be all together, but as lawless ghettos formed they are now placed one to a block in generally good streets. Obviously not popular, but it does work better. A problem that does arise even with the better tenants is that they start referring to this temporary housing as "Our Home", and get upset when told that as their income has risen they have to go and pay commercial rent elsewhere.
Like Imaginos I maintain my rental houses well, and actually ask just under the going rate if I have a good tenant. The Real Estate Agents have databases of the bad tenants who don't pay rent or trash houses. This has led to the current situation that you dare not rent from private advertising, as all the scum get knocked back by the agents and try to rent privately using fake references and such. I've been burnt a few times, so am careful now.
I remember a single female friend who rented out her farmhouse to people who had The E's attitude about free accommodation. Wrong person. She got me to come out with her to cut off the water (private bore) and power, while she talked loudly about how "It would be a shame to have a fire at 2am, lucky I've got insurance". They left the next day, she cleaned up their unbelievable mess, and sold it, never rented a house out again.

Daryl wrote:I remember a single female friend who rented out her farmhouse to people who had The E's attitude about free accommodation.

Thank you very much for insinuating that I am a deadbeat tenant who lets the flat he's living in deteriorate, that's great.

I think it's quite telling that my desire to not have anyone be homeless transforms in your mind into a desire to not have to care about the place I'm living in.

Also interesting how both you and Imaginos both look at the failure modes of the systems your countries have tried and are both coming to the conclusion that the idea of state-administrated housing is an obvious failure that can't ever work (I mean, I get it in Imaginos' case; after all, he seems to be someone who is convinced that government can't work, keeps electing people who tell him that government is bad, and then is astonished that his government is getting worse...)