Uncompromising Honor chatter

cthia wrote:Speaking of rolling up operatives, anyone else taken aback by the Alignmentt's sheer viciousness towards their own operatives? It shouldn't surprise me, I know, but still. That poor fellow who sent the destruct signal to destroy the first habitat in Beowulf truly had no idea he was committing suicide. But did his signal destroy them all? Which would seem to be unlikely over the distances of the habitats, plus the fact that the bombs were located deeply within the bowels of each habitat. And if there was someone on each habitat sending the signal, then they would have had time to realize that the first idiot blew himself up.

George J. Smith wrote:You have to remember that operative was gamma level at best and not the crème de la crème, therefore completely expendable in the eyes of the Malign leadership.

tlb wrote:The bombs could have been connected to the Honorverse equivalent of the internet and all set their timers based on the initial coded signal. It does not require direct radio contact with each bomb; just as some bombs today could be triggered by a code sequence sent to an imbedded mobile phone.

cthia wrote:Brilliant tlb! Because I couldn't explain the specific time intervals of the detonations if carried out by other operatives, who also could have been late getting into place. But then, if the internet was used, why did the operative need to be killed as well after sending the signal? Surely he had the nanotech.

In the incident with Byng, they found a dupe, who thought that he was working for the security forces. They did not want him to survive and explain his actions. Rather than an essential operative at Beowulf, perhaps this was just a throwaway person whose fate was part of the plan. Whether killed by nanotech or the bomb makes no difference really; once gone he is just another victim. Perhaps the nanotech would have kicked in if he was interrogated.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:It certainly seems obvious now, the MA are never planning to come out into the open "as is." Which makes me wonder which planet will represent them as the "New Mesa".

That is why they created the Renaissance Factor (Faction?).

Indeed so. But the RF alone does not allow for the human necessity of serving revenge cold. Unless the RF is known to be the Detweiler design to the universe at large, which it can't be, then the cold dish of revenge cannot be served. The construct that is the MA just isn't likely to serve their main course hot. Although, all of the other courses came in calculatingly cold, and hot!

Human nature simply has to take the credit for revenge. Like a serial killer who has to autograph his kills. I'm not saying someone who murders for revenge has to tell the world all about it. But someone as impassioned as Detweiler and the Detweiler design, who embarks on a centuries long plan of revenge and can keep it hot for centuries, IMO, does.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Speaking of rolling up operatives, anyone else taken aback by the Alignmentt's sheer viciousness towards their own operatives? It shouldn't surprise me, I know, but still. That poor fellow who sent the destruct signal to destroy the first habitat in Beowulf truly had no idea he was committing suicide. But did his signal destroy them all? Which would seem to be unlikely over the distances of the habitats, plus the fact that the bombs were located deeply within the bowels of each habitat. And if there was someone on each habitat sending the signal, then they would have had time to realize that the first idiot blew himself up.

George J. Smith wrote:You have to remember that operative was gamma level at best and not the crème de la crème, therefore completely expendable in the eyes of the Malign leadership.

tlb wrote:The bombs could have been connected to the Honorverse equivalent of the internet and all set their timers based on the initial coded signal. It does not require direct radio contact with each bomb; just as some bombs today could be triggered by a code sequence sent to an imbedded mobile phone.

cthia wrote:Brilliant tlb! Because I couldn't explain the specific time intervals of the detonations if carried out by other operatives, who also could have been late getting into place. But then, if the internet was used, why did the operative need to be killed as well after sending the signal? Surely he had the nanotech.

In the incident with Byng, they found a dupe, who thought that he was working for the security forces. They did not want him to survive and explain his actions. Rather than an essential operative at Beowulf, perhaps this was just a throwaway person whose fate was part of the plan. Whether killed by nanotech or the bomb makes no difference really; once gone he is just another victim. Perhaps the nanotech would have kicked in if he was interrogated.

But that's my point. It didn't make any difference to the MA, but it certainly made a difference to that poor sap. He actually thought he was going to live. And I'm sure he wanted to live. It begs the question if he would have carried out his orders if he was aware of the consequences. There is simply no regard for human life. Only the endgame matters to the MA. The leaders of a cult demand not for themselves what they demand of you. Then again, Daddy Daycare did sacrifice himself.

Late edit:
I wonder how many of Detweiler's clones have a self-sacrificing bone in them. It is easy to invest a lot in a cause, until the price becomes your own life.

While reading UH, I recall a strong bit of foreboding forming in the pit of my stomach when I learned of so many very important people who were going to be in Beowulf space when the attack came in. Of course, the gist of this thread came to mind, because it would have been crazy for the MA not to take advantage of such an opportunity to kill so many important targets with one attack, if it had been privy to the target rich environment. As a result though, the GA just may find the MA now. If only because of the noise produced from so much shouting and joy after the MA receive the news of who was killed in the attack. I sure hope the author didn't get that idea from reading that thread, because I'd sure hate to be responsible, in any small part, for that abortion.

At any rate, I recalled feeling a little anxious over Code Romeo -- or whatever the defense condition was when Jacques and Hamish received it -- that directed them to act as they did. I wondered why the safest place wouldn't be to get dirtside immediately, but iinm, that was the plan after docking Anachronism. At any rate, I thought I saw Hamish's death coming. I also worried about the death of all of those very important people assembled in Beowulf, in light of that notion contained in the previously referenced thread, exacerbated by the numerous light years of discussion of the many people projected to die in that system. Weber certainly did a fine job of setting us up for that curvy screwball. I can just see him sitting at his computer laughing like an evil genius about that one.

Weber must have been feeling rather fiendish on the order of the cats on Grayson during the cultivator prank. What a sigh of relief I felt when Hamish survived. Squalls of tears I shed on that passage alone! It ultimately made me discard my weapon of choice if ever I meet the author. Arming myself with a super soaker in lieu of a pitchfork is somewhat acceptable. Maybe. ::shrug::

Another thing UH reminded me of is the forgotten notion I had long ago of the idea of a cat self-destructing from mere hearsay of its mate's death. It would be highly ironic if Nimitz had died from his heartache before learning that Sam had survived. In light of UH, perhaps Weber should get his own armsmen. LOL

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Fox2! wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:How do we know that the Manticoran medical establishment is more competent than Earth's? I assume a good number of physicians on Earth were trained on Beowulf.

So, to cite just one example (not including his spouse), Alfred Harrington, at last sighting Commodore, MC, RMN, are physicians in the Old SKM. It's even easier to get to the Manticore Binary System than it is to get to Earth.

Further proof, served in the pudding of UH . . .

He’d felt more than a little trepidation about meeting Jennifer, however. The redoubtable grand dame of the Benton-Ramirez y Chou clan had been one of the galaxy’s very first prolong recipients when she was twenty-seven T-years old. She’d just celebrated her hundred and thirtieth birthday, but she remained as vigorous as she’d ever been and she’d been one of the leading geneticists of Beowulf for three-quarters of her life. Given Beowulf’s preeminence in the biosciences, that put her in what might be called “elite company.”

I should have explained that that notion reflects the fact that Allison resides in the SKM.

cthia wrote:But that's my point. It didn't make any difference to the MA, but it certainly made a difference to that poor sap. He actually thought he was going to live. And I'm sure he wanted to live. It begs the question if he would have carried out his orders if he was aware of the consequences. There is simply no regard for human life. Only the endgame matters to the MA. The leaders of a cult demand not for themselves what they demand of you. Then again, Daddy Daycare did sacrifice himself.

Late edit:
I wonder how many of Detweiler's clones have a self-sacrificing bone in them. It is easy to invest a lot in a cause, until the price becomes your own life.

Remember what Jack McBryde realized in Torch of Freedom: the scheme is to put the Long Range Planning Board in charge of every human life with decisions about sterilization and euthanasia. Like Francesca, many of those would die because the LRPB decided they lacked quality of life.

I expect the Detweiler Plan is to get the LRPB into place and then let it slowly sink in that this is what Mesa wanted.

Regarding the decision not to implement an emergency evacuation of the VIPs aboard the habitats because no one else could be. I don't agree that those important people shouldn't have been whisked out of harm's way, even though the bulk of everyone else could not be evacuated in time. Regardless of their imminent survivors guilt, these people were way too important to the SKM. And they had a duty to stay alive. The lost of Caparelli or Pat Givens alone could cost lives in the future.

BTW, the amount of reactor mass I burned shedding tears in UH is unfathomable. While reading UH, I should have had a supply ship following me around.

cthia wrote:Another thing UH reminded me of is the forgotten notion I had long ago of the idea of a cat self-destructing from mere hearsay of its mate's death. It would be highly ironic if Nimitz had died from his heartache before learning that Sam had survived.

It also would have been ironic -- yes, and tragic -- if Honor had chosen to die before learning of Hamish's survival. Or if she chose to commit life or career ending atrocities before the soul-saving revelation.

It is also ironic, sad and tragic that the premature news of Hamish's death killed Emily. I feel Honor's pain. Emily died much like a cat would have.

cthia wrote:"tlb"]"cthia"]Speaking of rolling up operatives, anyone else taken aback by the Alignmentt's sheer viciousness towards their own operatives? It shouldn't surprise me, I know, but still. That poor fellow who sent the destruct signal to destroy the first habitat in Beowulf truly had no idea he was committing suicide. But did his signal destroy them all? Which would seem to be unlikely over the distances of the habitats, plus the fact that the bombs were located deeply within the bowels of each habitat. And if there was someone on each habitat sending the signal, then they would have had time to realize that the first idiot blew himself up.

George J. Smith wrote:You have to remember that operative was gamma level at best and not the crème de la crème, therefore completely expendable in the eyes of the Malign leadership.

tlb wrote:The bombs could have been connected to the Honorverse equivalent of the internet and all set their timers based on the initial coded signal. It does not require direct radio contact with each bomb; just as some bombs today could be triggered by a code sequence sent to an imbedded mobile phone.

cthia wrote:Brilliant tlb! Because I couldn't explain the specific time intervals of the detonations if carried out by other operatives, who also could have been late getting into place. But then, if the internet was used, why did the operative need to be killed as well after sending the signal? Surely he had the nanotech.

In the incident with Byng, they found a dupe, who thought that he was working for the security forces. They did not want him to survive and explain his actions. Rather than an essential operative at Beowulf, perhaps this was just a throwaway person whose fate was part of the plan. Whether killed by nanotech or the bomb makes no difference really; once gone he is just another victim. Perhaps the nanotech would have kicked in if he was interrogated.[/quote]
But that's my point. It didn't make any difference to the MA, but it certainly made a difference to that poor sap. He actually thought he was going to live. And I'm sure he wanted to live. It begs the question if he would have carried out his orders if he was aware of the consequences. There is simply no regard for human life. Only the endgame matters to the MA. The leaders of a cult demand not for themselves what they demand of you. Then again, Daddy Daycare did sacrifice himself.

Late edit:
I wonder how many of Detweiler's clones have a self-sacrificing bone in them. It is easy to invest a lot in a cause, until the price becomes your own life.[/quote]

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When you invest in a "Cause" it is always someone else's life/property/etc that is the price.
As George Orwell noted "All the animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others"

-- Stewart

cthia wrote:While reading UH, I recall a strong bit of foreboding forming in the pit of my stomach when I learned of so many very important people who were going to be in Beowulf space when the attack came in. Of course, the gist of this thread came to mind, because it would have been crazy for the MA not to take advantage of such an opportunity to kill so many important targets with one attack, if it had been privy to the target rich environment. As a result though, the GA just may find the MA now. If only because of the noise produced from so much shouting and joy after the MA receive the news of who was killed in the attack. I sure hope the author didn't get that idea from reading that thread, because I'd sure hate to be responsible, in any small part, for that abortion.

At any rate, I recalled feeling a little anxious over Code Romeo -- or whatever the defense condition was when Jacques and Hamish received it -- that directed them to act as they did. I wondered why the safest place wouldn't be to get dirtside immediately, but iinm, that was the plan after docking Anachronism. At any rate, I thought I saw Hamish's death coming. I also worried about the death of all of those very important people assembled in Beowulf, in light of that notion contained in the previously referenced thread, exacerbated by the numerous light years of discussion of the many people projected to die in that system. Weber certainly did a fine job of setting us up for that curvy screwball. I can just see him sitting at his computer laughing like an evil genius about that one.

Weber must have been feeling rather fiendish on the order of the cats on Grayson during the cultivator prank. What a sigh of relief I felt when Hamish survived. Squalls of tears I shed on that passage alone! It ultimately made me discard my weapon of choice if ever I meet the author. Arming myself with a super soaker in lieu of a pitchfork is somewhat acceptable. Maybe. ::shrug::

Another thing UH reminded me of is the forgotten notion I had long ago of the idea of a cat self-destructing from mere hearsay of its mate's death. It would be highly ironic if Nimitz had died from his heartache before learning that Sam had survived. In light of UH, perhaps Weber should get his own armsmen. LOL

.

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Honor and Nimitz were both in a suicide spiral -- not eating, sole focus on their final duty. If the Duke of Comarty had not set a new speed record, Hamish and Sam may have discovered Honor and Nimitz both expired in her cabin after returning the Sol system to pre-Diaspera technology.

-- Stewart