runsforcelery wrote:
Now, just because we're making nice right now, don't think it means I'm going to concede any future arguments without one hell of a fight!
Take care
I wouldn't have it any other way, RFC . And thank you!
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Dilandu » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:00 pm | |
Dilandu
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I wouldn't have it any other way, RFC . And thank you! ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Robert_A_Woodward » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:08 am | |
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I am a bit curious on which Hohenzollern became Kaiser. Was it Wilhelm II (who was 80+ years old), was it his son, Crown Prince Wilhelm, or was it his grandson Prince Louis Ferdinand? I have some doubt that the Hohenzollern monarchy would be restored if the Nazis had crashed and burned immediately after the defeat of France. However, I have discovered that the funeral of Louis Ferdinand's older brother (who died in May 1940 of wounds suffered while serving in the Wehrmacht) was very well attended. ----------------------------
Beowulf was bad. (first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper) |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Dilandu » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:04 am | |
Dilandu
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While the restavration of German monarchy was possible (quite a lot of military officers were at least tolerant to this idea), the probability of sucsessfully removing Nazi from power immediately after the fall of France is extremely low. Simply speaking, for absolute majority of Germans at this moment the Nazi government is the one which gave them revenge, greatness and quick victory over most powerful army of Europe (the French one). Short of publicly eating newborn babies, I fail to see, how Nazi could discredit themselves so fast and completely t this moment. The realistic scenario would probably involve Kaiser achieving power through the compromise between the military and Nazi. Sort of "we both agree that we didn't like this idea, but since its the only thing we could agree on, let's give it a try". The actual removal of Nazi from power would be slow. Even the USSR - which was the most eager to denazificte Germany - was unable to remove all former Nazi functionaries completely. It would collapse everything that still worked in Germany. ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser | |
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by GregD » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:12 pm | |
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1: Britain came damn close to suing for peace with the Nazis, even with Dunkirk providing a strong boost for the "never surrender" side. So with Hitler dead, and the Germans offering to give back everything they won in the West on the battlefield, I can see the Allies taking it. Why not? Their militaries are clearly behind the German's. Get industrial capacity and population back, don't get bombed, and be able to build up their military? Win! So, what's the "lose"? |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by GregD » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:23 pm | |
GregD
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Um, you switched from "no way Britain and France would accept that off" to "that offer is far too generous! no way Germany would make it!" with truly blinding speed. So you might want to avoid the "you are contradicting yourself very hard" line. |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by GregD » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:30 pm | |
GregD
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Dilandu:
It's a generally accepted bit of history for educated Americans from my generation (educated in the 80s) that when the Germans invaded the USSR, there were a lot of people willing to throw in with them against the mad butcher Stalin. The problem was that Hitler was at least as much of a mad butcher, and so wouldn't accept their help. If you'd like to claim this is not true, feel free. But you're going to need some significant support to have that claim even considered. As a Nazi and Commie hating American, one who's watched exactly how happy modern Ukrainians were to get out of the FUSSR, that part of the book rang perfectly true to me. |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Dilandu » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:47 pm | |
Dilandu
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I didn't. The scenario is just implausible from too many points. Basically it's required BOTH sides to act against their best judgement, interests, and logic.
Oh please. It was generally accepted bit of history for educated Russians from previous-to-mine generation (80s) that US schemed how to weaken both sides and delayed the invasion until it became obvious that Germany is defeated, and if US did not join fast, then the whole Europe would be liberated by Red Army. Don't mistake convenient propaganda with the reality.
Well, as Nazi-hating Russian (and half Ukrainian) with a good knowledge of history, and a knack in alternate history, I could say that you obviously didn't knew the facts. Like the fact that on 1991 Soviet Union referendum the majority (78% of population) voted for the USSR to be preserved as a modernized economical and political union. Basically, you constantly mix the propaganda with reality. Yes, the carefully chosen facts could easily be confused with ALL facts. But they aren't actually. ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Robert_A_Woodward » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:13 am | |
Robert_A_Woodward
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If I had actually read the sample chapters, I wouldn't have asked the above question. However, since I have now reached the 3/4ths point in the webscription, I do have some comments. The background history briefing in chapter 29 (also chapter 28) contains, IMHO, one outright error and several items that bother me. For that matter, chapter 4 includes some detail as well I will address. To begin with, the Admin timeline will NOT refer to the period in Europe from September 1939CE to June 1940CE as World War II. Especially since they are referring to subsequent Germany-USSR conflict as the Great Eastern War (which overlapped the UK-USA war with Japan). I am a bit curious on why France and the UK didn't get a bit rambunctious during while the Nazi party was crashing and burning (especially in the second phase which started in October 1940). Also, both Japan and Stalin appeared to be a bit too ambitious. I am not certain that Japan would had kicked off its attack on European colonial holdings if the UK and France were not involved in active shooting (if I read the timeline correctly, there was a armistice with peace negotiations underway or at least being discussed) when Japan kicked off their offensive. As it was, it appeared that they had a longer run of hot dice than in out timeline. Stalin was always very cautious. And I don't see him risking a war with Germany when it was at peace with France and the UK. Of course, he would have had thousands (20K, 30K?) T-34s in his army. Perhaps, he thought he could win. ----------------------------
Beowulf was bad. (first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper) |
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Re: Gordian Protocol Teaser MAJOR spoiler added | |
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by Dilandu » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:47 pm | |
Dilandu
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Exactly. Most importantly, by 1945 the USSR would actually have the military power superior to Germany (which, as I mentioned above, would be completely broke, isolated, and distrusted by everyone around), so even if - somehow - "Western Allies" would manage to won, it would left Eurasia in MUCH worse state than after real World War 2. The USSR-1945, without 1941 disaster, would be an order of magnitude more dangerous opponent, than Germany even dreamed to be. That's why I consider this scenario as completely unworkable. And that's why I worked out the more plausible variant: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10010 ------------------------------
Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave, Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave. (Red Army lyrics from 1945) |
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