Reserve Fleet

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I certainly understand the notion of keeping the MA off-balance, but doesn't "replace" suggest units that can be relegated to the reserve?

My qualms with the notion of a reserve fleet would include the fact that your responsibility to your allies are never met. If you have "time and resources" available to build a reserve fleet then you have time and resources to place more of a deterrence in their sector. Therefore, units replaced by newly minted warships should be sent to cover your responsibility to your allies instead of being earmarked for the reserve.

No reason they can't sell 'old' ships to second and third-tier allies, if they are interested.

But my view is that allowing a standing reserve to grow will inevitably result in resistance to naval evolution. This shouldn't be allowed, or what happened to the SLN will eventually happen to the RMN. "This new design is really good, but it instantly turns our entire reserve into scrap. Should we really do that?"

It may be impossible to ultimately avoid hitting some kind of plateau, but that doesn't mean it can't be delayed for a long time by trying to firmly set the 25-year mindset now, when recent experiences are still raw.

Relying on any reserve is also a bad idea given the Alignment's demonstrated stealth drive and weapons. As KZT points out occasionally, there's nothing really stopping the Alignment from sending freighters through Manticore dumping graser torpedoes. Active ships at rest are still vulnerable to those, but not as badly as a completely inert reserve in a predictable long-term orbit would be.

I think that transferring the least modern warships to the Star Empire of Manticore's newly acquired member systems is the solution. The ships can be accompanied by a cadre of RMN reservists who can train local recruits. Even if they do not have Keyhole II FTL comm to employ Apollo, an early design SD(P) can kick the crap out of just about anything else. Reliant class BCs and Star Knight CAs are nothing to sneer at either, specially if they are augmented by missile pods. There are a lot of SLN ships that are at risk of going rogue. Having an SDF that can ream a squadron of SLN SDs is a reasonable backup to relying on the RMN's Apollo SD(P)s to avenge you if some maniac blows away your orbital infrastructure or commits EE violations.

There is real value in transferring obsolescent ships to training commands in new territories.

HOWEVER this is not a reserve in the sense of the original proposal instead it is a training command that can double is local protection against light raiders and pirates. They remain active ships on the Order of Battle but they are active ships in a second line function. We see this in real life with how the Japanese kept their old armored cruisers from the Russo-Japanese war as local coast defence/training ships and some even survived the massacre of the IJN in 44/45.

We are seeing two or three things in the series by the end of Uncompromising Honor.

1st we see places like The Kingdom of Meyers probably getting the undestroyed SLN/FF ships after Mike showed up and shut down the OFS Sector Govenor. There are still a number of SLN shops at Spindle but nothing larger than a BC is going to be much use to anybody in the Quadrant and surrounding area primarily because of crewing problems ( 6k spacers and officers for a SLN SD) and, at the moment, it is unlikely that SLN SDs are going to be going rogue and heading out there. The bigger problem is people like Monica (except Monica just got badley burned and signed a nonaggression treaty with Manticore and has been likely told just exactly what will happen if they go back to their old habits) who have CL, CA, CH and BCs in addition to Destroyers - which are probably either SLN export /decommisioned and sold on- with trained local crews. Rogue SLN ships are not the problem at the moment.

Sure, you could move one of the former Crandal SD to some system and it would make a heck of a large mobile training base. It would even give the system SLN current level sensors and command tactical system to learn on and deploy. The question is wether it's worth it. Possibly on a case-by-case basis. Can you put in softward patches and upgrades to let the SLN stuff work with RMN? Probably. You are not going to be starting to manufactureing SLN missles but Talbot has a bunch (all those surendered SD and ammo ships in the fleet train). The bigger problem is strapping on more modern defensive weapons...along with training the locals to 1st use the SLN stuff will enought to keep people out of their system, and then transitioning them to RMN gear when it becomes available.

Also at the moment you have people like the Rembrant (SDF) Navy - another place with workable SLN tech warships- which is now in SKM and you are going to want to transition to AT LEAST RMN ships from the 1st Havenite war period. You need to bring them up into the RMN tech, tactics, sensors, training levels, and integrate them at least into a Talbot Guard level. Given the Rembrand's SDF has been activly pirate hunting and doing commerce protection before Mantiocre showed up, they have experience and possibly the least problmems with transitioning.


Most of the rest of the SKM Talbot Quadrant has old -some very old- style LACs and the LAC squadons baseing at those systems is a major boost and will put them in a situation where the new LAC squadrons (with now RMN crews) can take on a SLN DD, wether someobody's 2nd hand ship or rogue unit. How fast you can reasonably transition the current planitary SDFs to RMN tech and education/training and experience levels PROBABLY means that you are going to stage them up as you train them (existing personel and new enlistments) and I'll defer to the Quadrant Govenor's team on that.

2nd we see that Silesia has been sent all sorts of older ships along with some new ones. That is partialy a function of the much larger number of systems now in SKM, the existing volume of merchant shipping and the need to show the new citizens (and others) that Mantiocre is serious about the rule of law and is tanking serioiulsy the need to clean things up. Ok, there are some old RMN ships in Talbot and at the moment the survivors are probably going to stay there for the same need from numbers of ships there with at least RMN tech and weapons. Given their positon vis the League in terms of access, more modern ships are needed but local pirate surpression and commerce protection and training can still go on with 2nd tier ships. In most cases the almost obsolete RMN ships are still at least even if not much better - with experienced crew- than SLN type ships of the same class. In the short term, that is what the GA is mostly going to be facing. What we don't know- it has been alluded to- is that a number of SDFs from other places have quite good if limited equipment. We know that the RF is probably well outfitted with good ships and experienced people (who have been paying attention the the Manticore-Haven fight) and will be problems when they are eventualy encountered. How soon any of that gets to either Silesia or Talbot is a question.

Also a question is what is going to start happening over by Maya, Erwhon and that termini by Hennessy etc as systems (particularly the RF) start flexing their reach and expand influence.

RMN is going to need training ships dispite their normal method of sending out new enlisted graduates of the training programs/schools plus midshipmen out to the fleet to bring them along. The only way to continue to provide the amount of places (ships) to provide that training and experience is to include those older ships in what are actualy traditional roles- piracy suppression, commerce protection, showing the flag, and now system security out in the new area of the Empire. Unfortulaty it is also going to include keeping a close eye on GA and friends commere in what was the old SL.
Manticore (and Grayson) are going to take a while to get back up to projected building levels AND we know that the ship types/designes are changing so they can't just replace older ships and keep up with demands. They don't have the capasity and they don't want to over-commit to pure warfighting ships at the moment. So keep using the servicable old stuff, just do like we have seen several commanders do and keep the older ships from having to be right in the front of the squadron if they have to sail into a fight.

kzt wrote:In general, half-pay officers are not the people you want to have running a ship. They are on half-pay because they have done something that makes them unwanted by any CO.

They also get promoted without any actual experience, so you'd have an O6 commanding a SD whose last actual navy experience was the tactical officer on a DD 15 years ago. A job he performed in such an incompetent fashion that no further need existed for his service.

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Keep in mind that White Haven was on half-pay 2 or 3 times in his career -- Janacek's time as 1st Lord, etc

Generally, Half-pay was used when the RMN "built-down"; current term "right-sized" to reduce naval operational expense while still maintaining a cadre of experiences officers

that's the theory

-- Stewart

Relax wrote:

kzt wrote:The USN can't afford it because the USN has 'invested' $22 billion dollar on three (3) destroyers without any ammo or volume air search radars, and $29 billion in little crappy ships that have NEVER completed a deployment in 10 years, has only marginal self-defense capability, no offensive capability, no demonstrated ability to perform any useful mission, and has failed to accomplish every single program objective, other then supporting several incompetent prime contractors.

That's the cost of 28 Burke's invested in mobile targets. And the target's manning means that 7th fleet is undermanned and under-trained so you can assign two crews to each LCS.

Well, that is what happens when you have ZERO civilian merchant marine industry as you shipped it all overseas via horrific "free trade" deals where they can dump in your country but you cannot export to their country.

Your naval industry becomes utterly incompetent as they
1) do not have enough work, so they lose experience in basic design and experience in manufacturing and
2) do not have any incentive to get it right anyways as they know 100% the contracts will still go to them and
3) No one has fought a naval engagement in 70 years and no one has any incentive to do real testing as that could/would
4) Obsolescent your fleet and
5) destroy the ego <<cough>> careers of all the eggs and braid who climbed the ladder in peace time where they do not give a Shit about performance other than paperwork and looking pretty doing drills which have zero relevance in a modern context other than discipline and structure building.

Why #1 resource to fight a war is a COMPLETE top to bottom competent civilian industry which is NOT monopolized or
#2 force yourself into lots of wars to validate/invalidate your designs, strategy, tactics, logistics(Europe's approach for several hundred years)

PS: There are many reasons ROME fell. One of the reasons is they lost their war fighting tech edge and competence on testing it as they had been at peace for way too long and the skirmishes they did fight were one sided barbarian stomps. Sound Familiar?

PPS: Want to know tech that would have obsolescent the entire DD force and reserve in the USN? Hydrofoils. Had them in the 60's. They claimed maintenance.... they had that completely solved. Then they claimed seamanship... Uh, if it is so ROUGH hydrofoils do not work, you just revert to a normal boat bobbing around... Then they claimed weight.... What is #1 weight on a ship? Armor/fuel. Hydrofoils saved 50% on fuel, and same on weight as hydrofoils are the perfect mine/torpedo defense, which means no double hulls required. Since you did not need your ship to have such a Long Length, the breadth of the ship could be massively increased which saved even MORE weight and conversely made the ship LESS susceptible to missile attack, ah but the "wisdom" of the eggs and braid stepped in and quickly canceled that program... Claimed it was due to Vietnam war(partially true) and also why USA went off gold standard...

Gets back to economics

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a little venting perhaps Relax ?

-- Stewart (USN retired)

Silverwall wrote:There is very little point in building up a physical reserve fleet until the pace of technology change slows down. Otherwise you end up like the Royal Navy at the end of the 19th Century. An impressive roster of ships but they are a hodgepodge of different generations that don't mesh well together to form a usable fleet.

I disagree with this because you don't know when the pace will change and for how long it will remain stagnant. If someone comes up with a technology that makes my fleet obsolete and they have ill intentions towards me then I am screwed if I have a fleet that is now obsolete or no fleet at all. On the other hand if you become aware of a drastic change in technology you can make adjustments and try to catch up because you have the shipyards with experience, the construction workers, the military expertise etc... For a fleet the crew is just as important and in some situations it could very well be the bottleneck.

Also reserve ships are realistically mothballed and will not be deployable in a month. Think 6 months to 1 year. This is a number that has been consistent since the change from Galleys to sailing ships of the line through to the Iowa class BBs that were reactivated for Vietnam and the 80s.

I am not saying all of the reserve should be ready to mobilize within a week, I am saying that the reserve should have some ships that are training vessels that shuould be armed and ready at all times in order to keep training crews in peacetime. At anyone time those training ships should be fully crewed, in an emergency mobilize the crew, give them a few months to drill and send them to a posting.

A Reserve fleet is literally just that, a reserve.

The point of the reserve is that it should be full manned and mobilzed within 6 months to allow 2-6 months of maneuvers before they are send out to operations not to have ships coming into service a year after mobilization only to then require months of workup.

The risk of a large reserve fleet is what happend to the SLN where the ships were unmanable and would be useless even if you could find the crews.

The SLN was the national equivalent of a hoarder, they had ships that were centuries out of date and were obsolete even by SLN standards, they had no real pan for mobilization and they had no shipyards to allow for upgrades even if they had the crew for the ships anyway and I highly doubt they had enough ammunition for all those ships even if they could crew them, and get them operational within a few months. The initial reserve couldn't have been of 500 SD's and that was taken into account when it came into existence, but over the centuries the SLN kept adding to the reserve without amending the mobilization plan or even worrying about crews.

Finally on Manning as they are being un-mothballed and upgraded for 6+ months you worry about crews as they get close to completion.

not if your crews require 2+ years to get fully trained before they can get posted to a ship.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I certainly understand the notion of keeping the MA off-balance, but doesn't "replace" suggest units that can be relegated to the reserve?

My qualms with the notion of a reserve fleet would include the fact that your responsibility to your allies are never met. If you have "time and resources" available to build a reserve fleet then you have time and resources to place more of a deterrence in their sector. Therefore, units replaced by newly minted warships should be sent to cover your responsibility to your allies instead of being earmarked for the reserve.

No reason they can't sell 'old' ships to second and third-tier allies, if they are interested.

But my view is that allowing a standing reserve to grow will inevitably result in resistance to naval evolution. This shouldn't be allowed, or what happened to the SLN will eventually happen to the RMN. "This new design is really good, but it instantly turns our entire reserve into scrap. Should we really do that?"

It may be impossible to ultimately avoid hitting some kind of plateau, but that doesn't mean it can't be delayed for a long time by trying to firmly set the 25-year mindset now, when recent experiences are still raw.

Relying on any reserve is also a bad idea given the Alignment's demonstrated stealth drive and weapons. As KZT points out occasionally, there's nothing really stopping the Alignment from sending freighters through Manticore dumping graser torpedoes. Active ships at rest are still vulnerable to those, but not as badly as a completely inert reserve in a predictable long-term orbit would be.

Do pardon my bold.

That's certainly possible, I suppose. But inherently, the military is exactly the opposite. They want the latest and greatest hardware and the largest budget they can muster. The only reason the SLN went the route of resistance is because of corruption -- corruption in the navy and in the civilian arm. I can't ever see that happening to the SKM, it goes against everything Project Gram stands for. Manticore knows that somewhere out there lurks a predator, and the League is a huge entity that could rise from the ashes. The navy may not be afraid for themselves, but they are anxious about their loved ones, which focuses their goals and "keeps their eye on the prize."

Notwithstanding your point about the MA, there will always be conventional battles to be fought. The SKM has money to burn in peacetime and it has to be invested to keep the economy healthy. The MA has unprecedented hardware, yes, but life and the navy must go on. The SKM can't afford to start second guessing itself.

Stagnation is the mortal enemy of Project Gram.

stewart wrote:
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a little venting perhaps Relax ?

-- Stewart (USN retired)

Who me? Why I would nevvvvve..... rrrrrr....
Oh right. Points are still valid though. No civilian industry = horrifically expensive and crappy military products.

Relax wrote:

stewart wrote:
-------------

a little venting perhaps Relax ?

-- Stewart (USN retired)

Who me? Why I would nevvvvve..... rrrrrr....
Oh right. Points are still valid though. No civilian industry = horrifically expensive and crappy military products.

---------------

Basically preaching to the choir.
20 yrs Navy, 1/3 shipboard, 1/3 Naval Air Stations; Yards in Bremerton & Newport News.
Aircraft carriers are not built overnight...

-- Stewart

Sigs"quote="Silverwall wrote:There is very little point in building up a physical reserve fleet until the pace of technology change slows down. Otherwise you end up like the Royal Navy at the end of the 19th Century. An impressive roster of ships but they are a hodgepodge of different generations that don't mesh well together to form a usable fleet.

I disagree with this because you don't know when the pace will change and for how long it will remain stagnant. If someone comes up with a technology that makes my fleet obsolete and they have ill intentions towards me then I am screwed if I have a fleet that is now obsolete or no fleet at all. On the other hand if you become aware of a drastic change in technology you can make adjustments and try to catch up because you have the shipyards with experience, the construction workers, the military expertise etc... For a fleet the crew is just as important and in some situations it could very well be the bottleneck.

Also reserve ships are realistically mothballed and will not be deployable in a month. Think 6 months to 1 year. This is a number that has been consistent since the change from Galleys to sailing ships of the line through to the Iowa class BBs that were reactivated for Vietnam and the 80s.

I am not saying all of the reserve should be ready to mobilize within a week, I am saying that the reserve should have some ships that are training vessels that shuould be armed and ready at all times in order to keep training crews in peacetime. At anyone time those training ships should be fully crewed, in an emergency mobilize the crew, give them a few months to drill and send them to a posting.

A Reserve fleet is literally just that, a reserve.

The point of the reserve is that it should be full manned and mobilzed within 6 months to allow 2-6 months of maneuvers before they are send out to operations not to have ships coming into service a year after mobilization only to then require months of workup.

The risk of a large reserve fleet is what happend to the SLN where the ships were unmanable and would be useless even if you could find the crews.

The SLN was the national equivalent of a hoarder, they had ships that were centuries out of date and were obsolete even by SLN standards, they had no real pan for mobilization and they had no shipyards to allow for upgrades even if they had the crew for the ships anyway and I highly doubt they had enough ammunition for all those ships even if they could crew them, and get them operational within a few months. The initial reserve couldn't have been of 500 SD's and that was taken into account when it came into existence, but over the centuries the SLN kept adding to the reserve without amending the mobilization plan or even worrying about crews.

Finally on Manning as they are being un-mothballed and upgraded for 6+ months you worry about crews as they get close to completion.

not if your crews require 2+ years to get fully trained before they can get posted to a ship.[/quote]

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There's 2 basic parts of any reserve program --
1) Personnel Training -- this is the "comparatively easy" portion -- on-going personnel training and hands-on familiarization with current hardware, doctrine and policies. Potentially all classroom and lab.
2) Equipment -- This takes on-going and initial design planning -- In the real world (ours) or the Honorverse (or any other), a fleet (whether ships, aircraft or armored vehicles) need to be designed with both on-going maintenance and internal system upgrades/replacements in mind. What you are basically designing is a framework/infrastructure that "parts" can be plugged into. There are always limitations -- a submarine built with 33 in tubes will not be able to fire torpedoes (or sub-launched Harpoon missiles) that are 44 to 48 in. ; An Avalon-Class light cruiser will not be able to support a Mk 16, despite being "newer".
There are missions a Spru-Can can do, there are missions a Burke-Can can due and missions a Zumwalt-Can can do.

-- Stewart