Battle of Spindle

TFLYTSNBN wrote:My impression is that the skinsuit incorporates some type of preprocessor that purees solid wastes, mixes it with liquid wastes then pumps it into some type of reservoir. Given my own propensity for producing prodiguous poops, it would be advisable to not incorporate this reservoir in the suit.

It has to be internal--suits are often worn for extended periods on board ship. If they don't have internal waste holding tanks you're going to have the waste all over your ship.

Now, the waste could be minimized with recycling. Feed the waste into a tank of supercritical oxygenated water (I forget the temperature and pressure needed) and basically everything organic gets decomposed. CO2 could then be vented, the water recovered, what little solid remains would be stored.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:My impression is that the skinsuit incorporates some type of preprocessor that purees solid wastes, mixes it with liquid wastes then pumps it into some type of reservoir. Given my own propensity for producing prodiguous poops, it would be advisable to not incorporate this reservoir in the suit.

It has to be internal--suits are often worn for extended periods on board ship. If they don't have internal waste holding tanks you're going to have the waste all over your ship.

Now, the waste could be minimized with recycling. Feed the waste into a tank of supercritical oxygenated water (I forget the temperature and pressure needed) and basically everything organic gets decomposed. CO2 could then be vented, the water recovered, what little solid remains would be stored.

A totally self-contained miniaturized wastewater treatment plant (WTP). Brilliant! Well, if a host of current problems that would hinder this particular application are solved, which I'd be willing to bet can/are solved with Honorverse tech and materials. One, the extreme temperature of the effluent flow, which is > 500° giving new meaning to being put in the hot seat. It's currently solved with an "Overhead" system which provides a cold quench liquid to cool the effluent flow. Common WTPs have an added overhead of standardized quality effluent flow which is reintroduced back into the environment which would not apply in this particular application.

Supercritical Parameters:
Steam Pressure 221.1 BAR
Steam Temperature: 374.15 C

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:I just realized that we are all probably assuming this one-off scenario being attempted at the far fringes of an Apollo brood's final stage, instead of a much closer-in combat where a lot more time is left on the MK 23 missile's drive system, thus the MK 23-E missile's drive as well. Leaving much more fuel for unscheduled maneuvers. No?

Apollo is more deadly at longer range (they still have good control and the missile's speed makes the defense situation much harder--nobody that's not part of the GA has defenses that are set up to handle missiles coming in high percentage of lightspeed), everyone else is not much of a threat at max range.

Thus, the GA should always seek to engage at maximum range. Near the end of the third stage is going to be the normal situation (other than in the period where they were holding back and pretending they had only two-stage missiles.)

Furthermore, having extra "fuel" (more like drive time) means nothing. Any missile that's burned it's first stage is not capable of re-engaging.

Agreed, Apollo is a boxer meant to take advantage of his longer reach. You don't want to allow a bruiser to get inside your reach. However, space opera always manages to throw you a curve ball -- MAlignant curve balls that may suddenly decloak and become objects that appear much closer in your rear view mirror. LOL

I like the notion of destroying decoys which are deployed outside the wedge. How feasible is this to accomplish with the 23-E? With Honor's demonstration salvo of three missiles that pirouetted for the audience and destroyed itself against the wedge implies incredible accuracy and control that could easily destroy decoys. The 23-E could actually initiate it's own personal program to destroy the decoys which it is already ignoring. Again, Henke's missile storm produced 1500 orphaned 23-Es. Attrit the decoys. Also, what is the size of the warhead opposed to the smallest nuke which is the 50# W54 currently. Surely Honorverse tech can produce much smaller nukes, possibly reincorporated back into the 23-E to take out decoys if ramming isn't an option?

cthia wrote:I like the notion of destroying decoys which are deployed outside the wedge. How feasible is this to accomplish with the 23-E? With Honor's demonstration salvo of three missiles that pirouetted for the audience and destroyed itself against the wedge implies incredible accuracy and control that could easily destroy decoys. The 23-E could actually initiate it's own personal program to destroy the decoys which it is already ignoring. Again, Henke's missile storm produced 1500 orphaned 23-Es. Attrit the decoys. Also, what is the size of the warhead opposed to the smallest nuke which is the 50# W54 currently. Surely Honorverse tech can produce much smaller nukes, possibly reincorporated back into the 23-E to take out decoys if ramming isn't an option?

I'd think a small nuke would have less of an effective radius in space than the ~10km wide wedge of the 23E. It's probably not worth shoehorning in a nuke for opportunistic end of run attacks unless it's got at least a 100 km standoff range - and that's way more powerful than any modern day nuke.

As for ramming decoys, that would seem to depend on two things. How soon the 23E can identified the decoy's position and how soon it was willing to cut guidance to its attack brood and alter vector towards the decoy.

If the decoys are playing enough games that the 23E can't figure out where they are it's going to have a very hard time hitting one
Even if it identified one late it may not have enough time to alter it's vector to intercept before it's base velocity carries it past. However if it can identify a decoy soon enough it then likely has to decide if it's worth cutting the attack missiles loose a bit sooner than optimal so it can maneuver to intercept, or whether it makes sense to ignore the chance to take out a decoy in order to fully maximize the chances of its attack missiles hitting the target ship. (Since it may need more than 2 seconds of maneuvering in order to alter course to intercept)


Still it's worth having programming in the 23E to think about possible ramming attacks even if it's set to completely prioritize controlling the attack missiles; because every once in a while a 23E will end up on exactly the right trajectory to ram a decoy or the target ship even if it starts manouvering only after its attack missiles' laserheads go off.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still it's worth having programming in the 23E to think about possible ramming attacks even if it's set to completely prioritize controlling the attack missiles; because every once in a while a 23E will end up on exactly the right trajectory to ram a decoy or the target ship even if it starts manouvering only after its attack missiles' laserheads go off.

A mk23e ha about one-gazilliong of a second to change from brood guidance to Kamakaze. If there isn't already something in the way, you aren't going to ram anything.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I like the notion of destroying decoys which are deployed outside the wedge. How feasible is this to accomplish with the 23-E? With Honor's demonstration salvo of three missiles that pirouetted for the audience and destroyed itself against the wedge implies incredible accuracy and control that could easily destroy decoys. The 23-E could actually initiate it's own personal program to destroy the decoys which it is already ignoring. Again, Henke's missile storm produced 1500 orphaned 23-Es. Attrit the decoys. Also, what is the size of the warhead opposed to the smallest nuke which is the 50# W54 currently. Surely Honorverse tech can produce much smaller nukes, possibly reincorporated back into the 23-E to take out decoys if ramming isn't an option?

I'd think a small nuke would have less of an effective radius in space than the ~10km wide wedge of the 23E. It's probably not worth shoehorning in a nuke for opportunistic end of run attacks unless it's got at least a 100 km standoff range - and that's way more powerful than any modern day nuke.

As for ramming decoys, that would seem to depend on two things. How soon the 23E can identified the decoy's position and how soon it was willing to cut guidance to its attack brood and alter vector towards the decoy.

If the decoys are playing enough games that the 23E can't figure out where they are it's going to have a very hard time hitting one
Even if it identified one late it may not have enough time to alter it's vector to intercept before it's base velocity carries it past. However if it can identify a decoy soon enough it then likely has to decide if it's worth cutting the attack missiles loose a bit sooner than optimal so it can maneuver to intercept, or whether it makes sense to ignore the chance to take out a decoy in order to fully maximize the chances of its attack missiles hitting the target ship. (Since it may need more than 2 seconds of maneuvering in order to alter course to intercept)


Still it's worth having programming in the 23E to think about possible ramming attacks even if it's set to completely prioritize controlling the attack missiles; because every once in a while a 23E will end up on exactly the right trajectory to ram a decoy or the target ship even if it starts manouvering only after its attack missiles' laserheads go off.

Thanks Jonathan. Let's keep it between you and I that I suggested the use of a nuke instead of the enormous wedge. I'll deny it, under oath. LOL

But your post does stir other questions in the case of the decoys tractored outside the wedge, 1. Are they still receiving beamed power? 2. What is the effective radius of the tractors? Isn't it much less than the effective radius of the warheads? IOW, isn't it possible to target the decoys with MK 23 warheads that should also cause some damage to the ship? Two birds with one stone? Or, in this case, two stones with one bird?

Are the tractors themselves targetable? Which may be a much more logical target. Unless there are many more tractors than decoys. I was under the impression that the Apollo system is good enough that it ignores enemy ECM like it isn't even there. Surely fifteen hundred 23-Es in Henke's missile storm's network could localize decoys, many probably passing thru beamed power. Akin to being able to detect the position of system communication platforms if you happen to pass thru the laser's beam.

Weird Harold wrote:A mk23e ha about one-gazilliong of a second to change from brood guidance to Kamakaze. If there isn't already something in the way, you aren't going to ram anything.

Understood Harold. I've been operating under assumptions. First, the 23-E's job is to direct the brood to the target whose position is constantly changing across the vast distance of space from the launching ship. Once the 23-E gets its brood as close as moments before initiating its attack run, the brood should be able to handle things on its own with its onboard brain.

>Just get me to the parking lot and I can find the bus< Says the little missile that could.

No? Remember, the 23-E has not executed, used, any attack maneuvers of its own, and decoys should be relatively close to the ship, being tractored and receiving beamed power. No?

cthia wrote:A totally self-contained miniaturized wastewater treatment plant (WTP). Brilliant! Well, if a host of current problems that would hinder this particular application are solved, which I'd be willing to bet can/are solved with Honorverse tech and materials. One, the extreme temperature of the effluent flow, which is > 500° giving new meaning to being put in the hot seat. It's currently solved with an "Overhead" system which provides a cold quench liquid to cool the effluent flow. Common WTPs have an added overhead of standardized quality effluent flow which is reintroduced back into the environment which would not apply in this particular application.

Supercritical Parameters:
Steam Pressure 221.1 BAR
Steam Temperature: 374.15 C

Given how long suits can provide life support I think it must be done that way. Anything else would mean the suits were way too bulky for how we see them used.

cthia wrote:The 23-E could actually initiate it's own personal program to destroy the decoys which it is already ignoring. Again, Henke's missile storm produced 1500 orphaned 23-Es. Attrit the decoys. Also, what is the size of the warhead opposed to the smallest nuke which is the 50# W54 currently. Surely Honorverse tech can produce much smaller nukes, possibly reincorporated back into the 23-E to take out decoys if ramming isn't an option?

You can make a small fission nuke that you can hold in the palm of your hand. (Designed for Orion.) The problem isn't the boom, the problem is the lasing rod and it's aiming system. That's too much to put in the 23-E's. It's ram or nothing--but against stuff outside the wedge I think there will be a decent number of ramming options. By no means will all missiles be able to ram but you have a decent number that can--not only the 23-E's but the dazzlers, also. Their emitters are spent, they have no other possible mission other than to kamikaze and they have more time to do it in, also--they were expended at the outer edge of the countermissile zone, they have a handful of seconds to aim for a decoy and the maneuver could have been started before they're fired even.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still it's worth having programming in the 23E to think about possible ramming attacks even if it's set to completely prioritize controlling the attack missiles; because every once in a while a 23E will end up on exactly the right trajectory to ram a decoy or the target ship even if it starts manouvering only after its attack missiles' laserheads go off.

Against decoys ramming will be low probability but not no-probability, why not try to attrit them?

Against ships ramming will be a devastating option if the wedge isn't in the way, otherwise it's a non-option. I would say that any missile that finds itself in a position to ram a ship should go for it. Lining up on the gap gives them a better chance of a hit anyway, nothing is lost until it reaches the point where they have to decide to fire their warhead or not. I would say that so long as ramming is an option they should not detonate.

Note that I would not expect any successful ramming attacks against competent opponents. Rather, the threat of ramming will force the defenders to interpose their wedge--and thus will weaken their missile defenses. When missiles have only a passing engagement that means they bear on their target and are within range at the same instant as the point defense lasers bear on them. Only defenses from more distant ships can effectively engage them and only with an inferior firing solution.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

cthia wrote:The 23-E could actually initiate it's own personal program to destroy the decoys which it is already ignoring. Again, Henke's missile storm produced 1500 orphaned 23-Es. Attrit the decoys. Also, what is the size of the warhead opposed to the smallest nuke which is the 50# W54 currently. Surely Honorverse tech can produce much smaller nukes, possibly reincorporated back into the 23-E to take out decoys if ramming isn't an option?

You can make a small fission nuke that you can hold in the palm of your hand. (Designed for Orion.) The problem isn't the boom, the problem is the lasing rod and it's aiming system. That's too much to put in the 23-E's. It's ram or nothing--but against stuff outside the wedge I think there will be a decent number of ramming options. By no means will all missiles be able to ram but you have a decent number that can--not only the 23-E's but the dazzlers, also. Their emitters are spent, they have no other possible mission other than to kamikaze and they have more time to do it in, also--they were expended at the outer edge of the countermissile zone, they have a handful of seconds to aim for a decoy and the maneuver could have been started before they're fired even.

Hmm, adding Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth to the notion of ramming is delectable. Brilliant! I always wondered what happens to the 23-E but never considered the Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth. Only Tester and Weber knows the total number of orphaned ECM missiles produced by Henke's missile storm that could have sought ramming opportunities. And I'm going to assume that the ECM missiles complete their mission farther away from the target than 23-Es, thus giving them more time to seek and ram. No?


I don't know which of the three sets of pods strategically fired by BatRon 106 contains 23-Es that would be better suited for ramming, however it seems to me that "observing" decoy activity should be added to the "recon" role of each salvo when using this tactic, sharing triangulation info, etc., . . .

Wiki wrote:The Apollo control missile could also analyze the readings from the sensors on its clutch of missiles, and report back via FTL to the Keyhole II platforms, essentially allowing it to act as a high-speed recon platform as well. A tactic developed by Battlecruiser Squadron 106 was to fire two extra pods, one ahead of the salvo, and one behind the salvo. The initial clutch would act as the recon platform, allowing them to both confirm their targets, and refine targeting data (since most ship-based sensors would be far out of range for precise targeting), while the follow-up clutch would be in position to observe the actions of the main salvo, allowing a ship commander real-time analysis of the enemy's battle-damage.

wiki wrote:Missiles came in varying masses, depending on the ship class that fired it, with larger vessels capable of firing missiles that had slightly more acceleration and heavier warheads. Missiles may have been tipped with various heads, including contact fusion warheads, bomb-pumped laser warheads, sidewall penetrators, and ECM to help missiles breach defenses. Some smaller missiles may even have been purely kinetic. Anti-missile defenses included rolling a ship's wedge, electronic countermeasures, countermissiles, and point defense.

Some smaller missiles may have been purely kinetic? For what purpose? Ramming?