How To Abandon Ship?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

tlb wrote:Normally in a situation where everyone is manning life pods, wouldn't the wedges and sidewalls be dropped? I am not sure that was true in the case were Henke was captured; in that case wouldn't they just be tossed out a little and the drive on the pod would accelerate out the stern opening (like Honor leaving Warnecke's repair ship, certainly the stern wall would be dropped for that)?

cthia wrote:That certainly would seem to work, but begets concerns of its own, e.g., it would appear to limit the maneuverability of the ship until the pods clear.* Which could be fatal for ship and pods if a missile is tracking for an up the kilt shot or a stealthed enemy suddenly launches from that vector -- which could also be heading into the outgoing pods. In the case of Ajax there wasn't much acceleration available, iinm. I suppose in war one simply cannot plan for all occasions.

*Akin to being hit by the tail end of a bus while its turning.

If a ship is capable of maneuvering, then there are very few situations where it would be abandoned. One arose with the SLN ships in the system where the governor had quarantined Manty merchantmen. They wanted to surrender, but the RMN had no way to abort the salvo that was in flight. The only recourse was to flee the ships.

Ajax had some acceleration, thus maneuvering ability. No?

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

tlb wrote:Normally in a situation where everyone is manning life pods, wouldn't the wedges and sidewalls be dropped? I am not sure that was true in the case were Henke was captured; in that case wouldn't they just be tossed out a little and the drive on the pod would accelerate out the stern opening (like Honor leaving Warnecke's repair ship, certainly the stern wall would be dropped for that)?

cthia wrote:That certainly would seem to work, but begets concerns of its own, e.g., it would appear to limit the maneuverability of the ship until the pods clear.* Which could be fatal for ship and pods if a missile is tracking for an up the kilt shot or a stealthed enemy suddenly launches from that vector -- which could also be heading into the outgoing pods. In the case of Ajax there wasn't much acceleration available, iinm. I suppose in war one simply cannot plan for all occasions.

*Akin to being hit by the tail end of a bus while its turning.

tlb wrote:If a ship is capable of maneuvering, then there are very few situations where it would be abandoned. One arose with the SLN ships in the system where the governor had quarantined Manty merchantmen. They wanted to surrender, but the RMN had no way to abort the salvo that was in flight. The only recourse was to flee the ships.

cthia wrote:Ajax had some acceleration, thus maneuvering ability. No?

Yes, Ajax could maneuver, but could not enter hyper-space, so was stuck in normal space around Solon.
From Storm from the Shadows, chapter 2:

Michelle felt it in her own flesh as HMS Ajax faltered suddenly.
"We've lost the after ring, Ma'am!" Stackpole said harshly. "All of it."
Michelle bit the inside of her lower lip so hard she tasted blood. Solon lay in the heart of a hyper-space gravity wave. No ship could enter, navigate, or long survive in a gravity wave without both Warshawski sails . . . and without the after impeller ring's alpha nodes, Ajax could no longer generate an after sail.

From At All Costs, chapter 37:

"How bad is it, Mike?" Honor asked as soon as she saw her friend.
"That's an interesting question." Henke managed to produce at least the parody of a smile. "Captain Mikhailov is dead, and things are . . . a bit confused over here, just now. Our rails and pods are still intact, and our fire control looks pretty good, but our point defense and energy armament took a real beating. The worst of it seems to be the after impeller ring, though. It's completely down."
"Can you restore it?" Honor asked urgently.
"We're working on it," Henke replied. "The good news is that the damage appears to be in the control runs; the nodes themselves look like they're still intact, including the alphas. The bad news is that we've got one hell of a lot of structural damage aft, and just locating where the runs are broken is going to be a copperplated bitch."
"Can you get her out?"
"I don't know," Henke admitted. "Frankly, it doesn't look good, but I'm not prepared to just write her off yet. Besides," she managed another smile, this one almost normal-looking, "we can't abandon very well."
"What do you mean?" Honor demanded.
"Both boat bays are trashed, Honor. The Bosun says she thinks she can get the after bay cleared, but it's going to take at least a half-hour. Without that—" Henke shrugged, and Honor bit the inside of her lip so hard she tasted blood.
Without at least one functional boat bay, small craft couldn't dock with Ajax to take her crew off. There were emergency personnel locks, but trying to lift off a significant percentage of her crew that way would take hours, and the battlecruiser carried enough emergency life pods for little more than half her total complement. There was no point carrying more, since only half her crew's battle stations were close enough to the skin of the hull to make a life pod practical.
And her flag bridge was not among the stations which fell into that category.

Michelle Henke's dilemma is that Ajax has too much classified equipment to surrender, but cannot escape. So she both abandons ship to the extent possible and launches all available pods to cause the Havenite navy to blast the ship to bits.

tlb wrote:If a ship is capable of maneuvering, then there are very few situations where it would be abandoned. One arose with the SLN ships in the system where the governor had quarantined Manty merchantmen. They wanted to surrender, but the RMN had no way to abort the salvo that was in flight. The only recourse was to flee the ships.

I can think of another situation where they probably should have: That suicidal charge in Uncompromising Honor. They knew the had no chance. Once they saw what had been fired their way everyone not needed to guide their salvos home should have abandoned. There would not be any damage control (when the storm gets there there's going to be too much damage to do anything about), there would not be any graser use, the chance of the engines needing anything in those last minutes were minute.

The only reason I would say the final crew shouldn't bail is life pods aren't shielded against the environment that will be outside their ships when the missiles arrive.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason I would say the final crew shouldn't bail is life pods aren't shielded against the environment that will be outside their ships when the missiles arrive.

The quote from chapter 37 of At All Costs indicates that Ajax did not carry extra life pods. Why would the designers be so frugal? What happens if there is battle damage to some of the pods?

The life pods might not be heavily shielded, but they are normally not the focus of a missile storm. In a situation where people need to abandon, I believe the odds favor survival in a life pod over staying with the ship. Yes, some may die; but if the compensator shuts down or the fusion reactor lets go, then all would die.

tlb wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason I would say the final crew shouldn't bail is life pods aren't shielded against the environment that will be outside their ships when the missiles arrive.

The quote from chapter 37 of At All Costs indicates that Ajax did not carry extra life pods. Why would the designers be so frugal? What happens if there is battle damage to some of the pods?

The life pods might not be heavily shielded, but they are normally not the focus of a missile storm. In a situation where people need to abandon, I believe the odds favor survival in a life pod over staying with the ship. Yes, some may die; but if the compensator shuts down or the fusion reactor lets go, then all would die.

I wasn't thinking of the pods being targeted. I'm just thinking of the teraton+ of nukes going off out there. That's not a safe environment at all. I would say your best survival odds would be to kill the drive and reactor in the last second. I'm just questioning why as many as possible didn't get off before they began the death ride.

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason I would say the final crew shouldn't bail is life pods aren't shielded against the environment that will be outside their ships when the missiles arrive.

tlb wrote:The quote from chapter 37 of At All Costs indicates that Ajax did not carry extra life pods. Why would the designers be so frugal? What happens if there is battle damage to some of the pods?

The life pods might not be heavily shielded, but they are normally not the focus of a missile storm. In a situation where people need to abandon, I believe the odds favor survival in a life pod over staying with the ship. Yes, some may die; but if the compensator shuts down or the fusion reactor lets go, then all would die.

Loren Pechtel wrote: I wasn't thinking of the pods being targeted. I'm just thinking of the teraton+ of nukes going off out there. That's not a safe environment at all. I would say your best survival odds would be to kill the drive and reactor in the last second. I'm just questioning why as many as possible didn't get off before they began the death ride.

That is an interesting problem; but if the warheads are exploding a thousand kilometers away (what is a good distance to use?) and the blasts attenuate with an R squared law, then is it as bad as you imply?

tlb wrote:That is an interesting problem; but if the warheads are exploding a thousand kilometers away (what is a good distance to use?) and the blasts attenuate with an R squared law, then is it as bad as you imply?

Well, to put on my nerdy and continuity fanatic hat, how come the pods get all messed up by radiation?

tlb wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:The only reason I would say the final crew shouldn't bail is life pods aren't shielded against the environment that will be outside their ships when the missiles arrive.

tlb wrote:The quote from chapter 37 of At All Costs indicates that Ajax did not carry extra life pods. Why would the designers be so frugal? What happens if there is battle damage to some of the pods?

The life pods might not be heavily shielded, but they are normally not the focus of a missile storm. In a situation where people need to abandon, I believe the odds favor survival in a life pod over staying with the ship. Yes, some may die; but if the compensator shuts down or the fusion reactor lets go, then all would die.

Loren Pechtel wrote: I wasn't thinking of the pods being targeted. I'm just thinking of the teraton+ of nukes going off out there. That's not a safe environment at all. I would say your best survival odds would be to kill the drive and reactor in the last second. I'm just questioning why as many as possible didn't get off before they began the death ride.

That is an interesting problem; but if the warheads are exploding a thousand kilometers away (what is a good distance to use?) and the blasts attenuate with an R squared law, then is it as bad as you imply?

For some pods I would assume it is as bad as it can get, death. There is always going to be pods from some ship somewhere who are caught up in the destruction. For instance, when some silly Solly asshole fires on a ship in the midst of abandoning. There could also be debris heading into the path of pods. At any rate, I would imagine the pinpricks of light Abigail witnessed on that balcony is nothing compared to the Fourth of July that pods see.

There's also the chance pods could be caught in the debris of its own exploding ship. And I can scarcely imagine the horror of passing way too close to an incoming missile.

If you are ordered to Abandon, there are some things you have to do. Some people (presuming they were alive to hear the order) would have to initiate destruction of classified materials. Some would be engaged in clearing the way to get to their nearest life pod both for themselves and others.
Some people won't be able to do it- like Henke's flag captain when she was captured, the bridge crew wasn't going be able to go anywhere and they were going to concentrate on the job of both fighting the ship and getting as many people off as possible
But it really does boil down get to the nearest pod (a boat would be better but seconds will matter) and LEAVE THE SHIP....explosivly. If your still attached when a reactor looses containment there will be nothing left to find. If you are not far enough away, you are quite likely to be hit be debris- either from hits to the ship or the ship blowing up. A life pod really isn't something that will draw the attention of a missile, unless you deliberatly target pods and dam few people are going to do that.
I don't know if the pods are ejected/launched at right angles to the hull of the ship and keep going in that direction on an initial propulsion burn or if they may immedialty angle such that they are heading slightly aft of the direction of the ship. That MAY or may not be of much help as you would have to stay clear of your own ship's wedge (if still up) but if the ship is under power the pod is immediatly going to start to be left behind as it heads out at perpendicular to the ship's direction of travel and while not actuly loseing much of that "forward" energy, it won't be getting anymore.
We keep seeing that the pods typicaly have enough power (in an undamaged state) to soft land a pod on a habitat planet within a system. Like we have seen a number of scenes where people have ordered opponants to immedialtly abandon ships and head for "the planet".
In general, you want to get as far away from your own ship and anything being shot at it as quickly as possible. Don't think a pod is going to be able to dodge much that might be comming at it.....amoung other things, active sensors that look "tactical" might draw unwanted attention from weapons being flung about.
How far and fast would depend on the pod's capability and some algorithm that would shut off the drive while the pod (or occupants) figure out where they should head to survive. And, of course, the pod's transponder is going to start screaming "I'm Here, I'm Harmless, PLEASE come and collect me while my passenger(s) are still alive."--I'm a LIFE POD, stupid, not a LAC
There has got to be some preprogramed instructions to tell a warhips's (or civilian craft's) life pods how fast it has to go for how long to get clear of "normal" problems if you have to abandon ship, particularly since it's occupants may not be capable of doing much more than stay alive for the ride.

Brigade XO wrote:If you are ordered to Abandon, there are some things you have to do. Some people (presuming they were alive to hear the order) would have to initiate destruction of classified materials. Some would be engaged in clearing the way to get to their nearest life pod both for themselves and others.
Some people won't be able to do it- like Henke's flag captain when she was captured, the bridge crew wasn't going be able to go anywhere and they were going to concentrate on the job of both fighting the ship and getting as many people off as possible
But it really does boil down get to the nearest pod (a boat would be better but seconds will matter) and LEAVE THE SHIP....explosivly. If your still attached when a reactor looses containment there will be nothing left to find. If you are not far enough away, you are quite likely to be hit be debris- either from hits to the ship or the ship blowing up. A life pod really isn't something that will draw the attention of a missile, unless you deliberatly target pods and dam few people are going to do that.
I don't know if the pods are ejected/launched at right angles to the hull of the ship and keep going in that direction on an initial propulsion burn or if they may immedialty angle such that they are heading slightly aft of the direction of the ship. That MAY or may not be of much help as you would have to stay clear of your own ship's wedge (if still up) but if the ship is under power the pod is immediatly going to start to be left behind as it heads out at perpendicular to the ship's direction of travel and while not actuly loseing much of that "forward" energy, it won't be getting anymore.
We keep seeing that the pods typicaly have enough power (in an undamaged state) to soft land a pod on a habitat planet within a system. Like we have seen a number of scenes where people have ordered opponants to immedialtly abandon ships and head for "the planet".
In general, you want to get as far away from your own ship and anything being shot at it as quickly as possible. Don't think a pod is going to be able to dodge much that might be comming at it.....amoung other things, active sensors that look "tactical" might draw unwanted attention from weapons being flung about.
How far and fast would depend on the pod's capability and some algorithm that would shut off the drive while the pod (or occupants) figure out where they should head to survive. And, of course, the pod's transponder is going to start screaming "I'm Here, I'm Harmless, PLEASE come and collect me while my passenger(s) are still alive."--I'm a LIFE POD, stupid, not a LAC
There has got to be some preprogramed instructions to tell a warhips's (or civilian craft's) life pods how fast it has to go for how long to get clear of "normal" problems if you have to abandon ship, particularly since it's occupants may not be capable of doing much more than stay alive for the ride.

I think it was established that on some ships, the crew are located too deeply within the bowels to enjoy access to pods. I always wondered if there was some automated control of pods when they ejected as well, at least sending them on or about the same vector to facilitate finding them. It isn't obvious if that is the case. Though I don't know if it would fall under the author's "no automation" rule.

To be fair and I suppose to put into perspective the enormous dangers and acceleration imposed upon life pods, the dangers are hardly new. Do note the 20–22 g acceleration imposed on Soviet pilots at one time. Say what?!

The purpose of an ejection seat is pilot survival. The pilot typically experiences an acceleration of about 12–14g. Western seats usually impose lighter loads on the pilots; 1960s–70s era Soviet technology often goes up to 20–22 g (with SM-1 and KM-1 gunbarrel-type ejection seats). Compression fractures of vertebrae are a recurrent side effect of ejection.

It was theorized early on that ejection at supersonic speeds would be unsurvivable; extensive tests, including Project Whoosh with chimpanzee test subjects, were undertaken to determine that it was feasible.

The capabilities of the NPP Zvezda K-36 were unintentionally demonstrated at the Fairford Air Show on 24 July 1993 when the pilots of two MiG-29 fighters ejected after a mid-air collision.

Pilots oftentimes eject into the middle of a maelstrom and chutes catch fire or are shredded from burning debris. Imagine ejection into the middle of flak.