How To Abandon Ship?

Loren Pechtel wrote:You don't need to see them. The incoming bearing was known, I'm simply saying to interpose the tug wedge between the station and that bearing and as close to the station as possible.

The graser torps probably aren't built to deal with wedges as there weren't supposed to be any. Even if they are, they lose target lock when the wedge gets in the way and have to reacquire after flying by the target. That's going to make it much harder and if another tug does the same thing on the other side it's going to be all but impossible.

It's not like shooting at a ship hiding behind it's wedge--in that case you can use the wedge to have a pretty good idea of where the actual target is, the missile can position almost perfectly, only a small nudge is needed when they have the final bearing.

The Graser Torps are supposed to have an intelligent agent "AI" second only the the Apollo control missiles. Their sensor should be more that capable of seeing a wedge in their path, and determining how to vector around it.

And since the stations can't move the torp computer is going to know exactly where to be pointing it's graser the instant it clears the wedge. About the only way that causes more than a minor inconvenience is if the wedge is so close the torp literally doesn't have the delta-v to avoid it in time.

Jonathan_S wrote:The Graser Torps are supposed to have an intelligent agent "AI" second only the the Apollo control missiles. Their sensor should be more that capable of seeing a wedge in their path, and determining how to vector around it.

And since the stations can't move the torp computer is going to know exactly where to be pointing it's graser the instant it clears the wedge. About the only way that causes more than a minor inconvenience is if the wedge is so close the torp literally doesn't have the delta-v to avoid it in time.

Your argument makes sense if the graser torps were designed for attacking stations. I doubt they are, though--they would be general purpose weapons. Thus they don't know their target can't move.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Graser Torps are supposed to have an intelligent agent "AI" second only the the Apollo control missiles. Their sensor should be more that capable of seeing a wedge in their path, and determining how to vector around it.

And since the stations can't move the torp computer is going to know exactly where to be pointing it's graser the instant it clears the wedge. About the only way that causes more than a minor inconvenience is if the wedge is so close the torp literally doesn't have the delta-v to avoid it in time.

Your argument makes sense if the graser torps were designed for attacking stations. I doubt they are, though--they would be general purpose weapons. Thus they don't know their target can't move.

I get the feeling that these particular torps weren’t that smart. One in particular did not try to avoid the frantically interposed wedge of the freighter in any manner and another passed right through the open throat and out the end. Plus, they were relying on receiving final vectors/orders from other spy ships, which would further hedge my bet that they wouldn’t have been smart enough to dodge an obstacle -- wedge or no.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Graser Torps are supposed to have an intelligent agent "AI" second only the the Apollo control missiles. Their sensor should be more that capable of seeing a wedge in their path, and determining how to vector around it.

And since the stations can't move the torp computer is going to know exactly where to be pointing it's graser the instant it clears the wedge. About the only way that causes more than a minor inconvenience is if the wedge is so close the torp literally doesn't have the delta-v to avoid it in time.

Your argument makes sense if the graser torps were designed for attacking stations. I doubt they are, though--they would be general purpose weapons. Thus they don't know their target can't move.

It doesn't actually need to be programmed specifically for attacking stations - though given it's long range capability combines with it's stealth it'd be odd if the designers hadn't put any thought into uses against 'fixed' infrastructure.

But predicting where the station is going to be after you lost sign of it is just one example of a general capability to project (and assign reliability data) to current observed target course - useful in any situation where you might temporarily lose target lock.
It just so happens that a station in orbit has an extremely well known course and one it's essentially unable to alter -- so the course projection (aka it'll continue to orbit) should be considered extremely reliable.

Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

I'm definitely going to assume that it all happened offscreen. Certainly in light of specific Pearls of Wisdom that tlb was kind enough to point us to. . .

tlb wrote:PS. RFC has a Pearl on firing off-bore missiles:
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/160-off ... getin.html

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

I'm definitely going to assume that it all happened offscreen. Certainly in light of specific Pearls of Wisdom that tlb was kind enough to point us to. . .

tlb wrote:PS. RFC has a Pearl on firing off-bore missiles:
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/160-off ... getin.html

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

I’d guess the life pods would have grav plates that could significantly cut the experienced acceleration. And presumably have acceleration/crash seats so you take the accel closer to flat on your back. But honestly, keeping survivors from passing out isn’t a priority. Gettinging them clear of a ship,that might be about to violently blow up is the priority. (Though they probably have a max accel higher risk mode and a low accel orderly abandon ship mode)

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

I'm definitely going to assume that it all happened offscreen. Certainly in light of specific Pearls of Wisdom that tlb was kind enough to point us to. . .

tlb wrote:PS. RFC has a Pearl on firing off-bore missiles:
http://www.davidweber.net/posts/160-off ... getin.html

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

Jonathan_S wrote:I’d guess the life pods would have grav plates that could significantly cut the experienced acceleration. And presumably have acceleration/crash seats so you take the accel closer to flat on your back. But honestly, keeping survivors from passing out isn’t a priority. Gettinging them clear of a ship,that might be about to violently blow up is the priority. (Though they probably have a max accel higher risk mode and a low accel orderly abandon ship mode)

Agreed, and I aplologize for not sharing more of the baggage of which I'm burdened, from, well, movies and real life. Especially since my "sharing" has been criticized. I imagine the regular crew member has been subjected to the accel of pods as a matter of course. The rare "civilian" that might find him/herself on a warship, OTOH. Might not. Let's say Alison was somehow rescued from a broken civilian transport by some fortunate warship. Let's say she is accompanied by one of her kids as a small baby. You wouldn't want some infant or small child passing out and choking on its own vomit. Now, whereas truth be told, the survival of as many as possible, even if not the youngest and most innocent, is better than nothing at all. Though I imagine would still be of utmost concern.

Heck, I've never been able to hazard the swings on a playground without getting dizzy and nauseous. Rollercoasters? Pfft!

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

Normally in a situation where everyone is manning life pods, wouldn't the wedges and sidewalls be dropped? I am not sure that was true in the case were Henke was captured; in that case wouldn't they just be tossed out a little and the drive on the pod would accelerate out the stern opening (like Honor leaving Warnecke's repair ship, certainly the stern wall would be dropped for that)?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

Normally in a situation where everyone is manning life pods, wouldn't the wedges and sidewalls be dropped? I am not sure that was true in the case were Henke was captured; in that case wouldn't they just be tossed out a little and the drive on the pod would accelerate out the stern opening (like Honor leaving Warnecke's repair ship, certainly the stern wall would be dropped for that)?

That certainly would seem to work, but begets concerns of its own, e.g., it would appear to limit the maneuverability of the ship until the pods clear.* Which could be fatal for ship and pods if a missile is tracking for an up the kilt shot or a stealthed enemy suddenly launches from that vector -- which could also be heading into the outgoing pods. In the case of Ajax there wasn't much acceleration available, iinm. I suppose in war one simply cannot plan for all occasions.

*Akin to being hit by the tail end of a bus while its turning.

cthia wrote:Do pardon my revisiting this thread due to recent discussions . . .

There must be an enormous acceleration imparted upon life pods to quickly clear the sidewalls, etc., if they are not dropped and simply a hole is opened up. Even under normal conditions other than Ajax, the pods must be shoved the hell out extremely quickly to distance themselves from any incoming destruction. What keeps occupants from PTFO? Passing the phuck out?

tlb wrote:Normally in a situation where everyone is manning life pods, wouldn't the wedges and sidewalls be dropped? I am not sure that was true in the case were Henke was captured; in that case wouldn't they just be tossed out a little and the drive on the pod would accelerate out the stern opening (like Honor leaving Warnecke's repair ship, certainly the stern wall would be dropped for that)?

cthia wrote:That certainly would seem to work, but begets concerns of its own, e.g., it would appear to limit the maneuverability of the ship until the pods clear.* Which could be fatal for ship and pods if a missile is tracking for an up the kilt shot or a stealthed enemy suddenly launches from that vector -- which could also be heading into the outgoing pods. In the case of Ajax there wasn't much acceleration available, iinm. I suppose in war one simply cannot plan for all occasions.

*Akin to being hit by the tail end of a bus while its turning.

If a ship is capable of maneuvering, then there are very few situations where it would be abandoned. One arose with the SLN ships in the system where the governor had quarantined Manty merchantmen. They wanted to surrender, but the RMN had no way to abort the salvo that was in flight. The only recourse was to flee the ships.