***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

noblehunter wrote:

dobriennm wrote:With the chapter just before the appearance of Schuler having Cayleb authorize Operation Androcles (Schuler's first name), followed immediately by the appearance in the next chapter, there is little doubt in my mind that this is "the second stage of the nefarious Nahrmahn Plan" (direct quote from TFT).

And that's exactly what RFC wants you to believe.

True, the Author does do a lot of misdirection, but "sometimes a pickle is just a pickle" (Groucho Marx).

That's the frustrating bit. Just because RFC is leading the reader to a certain conclusion, it doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong.

Count me amongst those who do not think this is something the IC would have done. There were god lights in the temple, thus there was something high-tech there. There's no way they would dare mess with it, or do their own tech in the presence of an opposing system.

dobriennm wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:If my assumption that it was an appearance by Schueler and not a sneaky IC trick is correct, the IC will be just as gobsmacked as everyone else.

Here we will agree to disagree.

Disagree all you like. But before you continue, answer the question I posed earlier.

Schueler apparently appeared in his cathedral on the day of the Feast of the Holy Schueler, and told the faithful gathered there that Shan Wei did not Fall and that Chihiro lied.

He left behind a holy book that is the Testimony of Schueler. Just what does that document say? That volume pretty much has to contain his proof of the assertions he made.

If it's all a sneaky IC trick, tell me what proof they can provide that can't be summarily ignored or dismissed as a vile plot by Shan Wei? (If they can't provide that proof, there's no point in making the assertions.)

Seijin Kohdy's diary records that he was defeated in combat by one of the Fallen, who did not kill him, but sat him down and presented evidence Kohdy could not dismiss that Chihiro had turned to evil and was modifying Langhorne's plan. Kohdy does not record what the evidence was - only that it shook him enough to go to Zion to ask Schueler about it, and he died in Zion. We don't know whether he actually spoke to Schueler before he was killed, and I think whether he did is significant.

What the IC needs to put into the Testimony to prove Schueler's assertions to the faithful is the sort of evidence the Fallen presented to Kohdy, but they don't have it. Anything in the Testimony documenting the truth of Schueler's assertions must be backed by verifiable evidence that cannot simply be dismissed by those who read it. (And will need to accord with records from the period between the destruction of Langhorne's HQ and the end of the War Against the Fallen that may be stored in the Temple that the IC has no knowledge of.)

You're the IC. You really wrote the Testimony of Schueler. What actual proof can you provide for your assertions that must be taken seriously by the Vicarate?

Given what the IC actually knows (and that's largely from sources they can't reveal anyway) I can't think of any.

Tell me what your proof is?

With the chapter just before the appearance of Schuler having Cayleb authorize Operation Androcles (Schuler's first name), followed immediately by the appearance in the next chapter, there is little doubt in my mind that this is "the second stage of the nefarious Nahrmahn Plan" (direct quote from TFT).

I think this conflates two events that are actually separate and not directly connected. The placement of them adjacent to each other in the text encourages that, which I think is RFC being sneaky. They might be related, but do not have to be, and the assumption they are related is a major point of controversy.

My understanding of the Nahrmann Plan is an intensification of something the IC has been doing all along - encourage the industrialization of Safehold for all they're worth, and develop Safehold as much as they can without obviously violating the Proscriptions.

That process will inevitably nibble away at the Proscriptions, but that's been happening for centuries, because the rulings of the Intendents assigned to rule on such things were increasingly matters of how big a bribe was offered.

It is also intended to spread it so widely that any returning Archangel who isn't totally crazy will have no choice but to accept it. That genie can't be stuffed back into the bottle without effectively dooming mankind on Safehold, given the level of destruction needed to erase it.

And it positions Safehold to advance far more quickly once the Proscriptions do go away, because it will already have almost everything save electric power.

I don't know what Operation Androcles might be, but I don't believe the appearance of Schueler in his cathedral on the anniversary of his mortal body's death is part of it.

I do think the timing on Operation Androcles comes from September 915 coming and going without an obvious Archangel return. That was the first date on which it might occur, and put pressure on the IC to do as much as possible before it took place to leave Safehold in a state returning Archangels couldn't roll back.

With that date passed, they have more time to play with to push things along, and Operation Androcles is part of that.

DMcCunney wrote:I expect much consternation to ensue.

Which ever one of us is right, much consternation will ensue.

As will much bloodshed, unfortunately as Desnair and South Harchong reject the revelations and start a new Holy War. Cynically on the part of the rulers as they will use their populace's religious fervor to motivate much shedding of their people's blood to maintain their position and power.

Desnair and South Harchong can start a new Holy War if they like, but what can they actually do? Just who would they be fighting?

Desnair has no navy, and no way of projecting power beyond its borders to anyplace it does not directly connect to. Zhyou Zhwo in South Harchong is in a similar position, and increasingly hemmed in. What havoc can they cause beyond their own borders?

Looking at the maps, Desnair could attempt to annex Delferak, but it's not clear why they would bother. They might attempt to attack Silkiah, but that would get them a response by both Charis and Dohlor I don't see them wanting to provoke yet. They might also attack Sodar, but again, why bother?

South Harchong is in what might charitably be described as a state of flux. Zhyou Zhwo might consider himself at war with Charis but has no realistic way of conducting active operations, and won't for some time. He's still trying to assert his control of South Harchong, and bring to heel competing warlords who will profess loyalty to him as Emperor only so long as they have something to gain by it (and will happily try to depose him and crown themselves emperor if any of them thinks they can pull it off.)

Holy War as a way to strengthen their control over their own population is a questionable tactic. It didn't work out well for them the last time, and the folks who are the ones they will want to assert control over will be the ones who suffered before. Expecting them to fight and die again in a cause like that might be exactly what will make them lose control of the people they are concerned about. Something like the Rebellion in Harchong occurring in Desnair looks like a distinct possibility if Mahrys tries that tactic.

The more interesting question is Siddarmark's reaction. It has a population split between Temple Loyalists, adherents of the Church of Charis, and possibly a number of folks who will think of themselves as members of a Church of Siddarmark, because they don't want anything to do with Mother Church or the Church of Charis.
______
Dennis

Julia Minor wrote:
The Inner Circle knows about the secret escape tunnel Clyntahn tried to use in AST. At least, Merlin and Nimue know about it (since they intercepted him at the exit), and I can't think of any reason for them not to have mentioned it. Since they also now know passive Fed-tech can be brought safely into the Temple, a Helm Cleaver member could have been sent through the tunnel to look for those archives.

That Tunnel has been thought of as a route for various nefarious schemes. Unfortunately there is an RFC post somewhere that explicitly says it can't be used for infiltration. He then gives one of 'those' grins and says 'I never told you where the entrance is located in the Temple buildings, did I?' or something very similar, the implication being that it is somewhere any sneaky entrant would very much dislike. Wish I| could remember where that was, sorry.

DMcCunney wrote:He left behind a holy book that is the Testimony of Schueler. Just what does that document say? That volume pretty much has to contain his proof of the assertions he made.

If it's all a sneaky IC trick, tell me what proof they can provide that can't be summarily ignored or dismissed as a vile plot by Shan Wei? (If they can't provide that proof, there's no point in making the assertions.)

Kudos Dennis

I think that is by far the strongest single argument against the apparition being the work of the IC that I have seen. - Once you start to think about the follow through an IC plot has nowhere to go.

Randomiser wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:He left behind a holy book that is the Testimony of Schueler. Just what does that document say? That volume pretty much has to contain his proof of the assertions he made.

If it's all a sneaky IC trick, tell me what proof they can provide that can't be summarily ignored or dismissed as a vile plot by Shan Wei? (If they can't provide that proof, there's no point in making the assertions.)

Kudos Dennis

I think that is by far the strongest single argument against the apparition being the work of the IC that I have seen. - Once you start to think about the follow through an IC plot has nowhere to go.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree

When the order of Schueler goes public with their 'vision' and the new book, who the heck are going to believe them? At this point in time they have to be the most vilified organization on Safehold. Even the CoGA has disbanded them and they are seen as the root of corruption in CoGA.

If they were going to start a misinformation campaign you would think they would pick an order much more respected like Pasqual.

dobriennm wrote:
Again, we will have to agree to disagree

Fair enough, but what do you think is in the Testament if it is an IC product?? Have you made any suggestions or are you just totally agnostic about it?

Randomiser wrote:

dobriennm wrote:
Again, we will have to agree to disagree

Fair enough, but what do you think is in the Testament if it is an IC product?? Have you made any suggestions or are you just totally agnostic about it?

Probably something along the lines of Chihiro actually using the Rakurii against Shan-Wei and the Alexandria Enclave, usurping Langhorne's power. Maybe even killing Langhorne and his Council, with the War Against the Fallen becoming Chihiro's war to destroy the last of the "good" Archangels.

Mind you, the above is probably over the top, I assume Nahrmann (well, the Author) is a little more subtle than that in undermining the Writ.

Since they have divine evidence simply by the Testimony being written in an indestructible book no mortal on Safehold could make and written in Schuler's handwriting (I imagine) it either has to be accepted as coming from the real Schuler (thus all true) or be the product of demons (thus all false). Binary choice. Which is how schisms occur.

But remember, the IC's purpose is, in the beginning, to introduce "doubt" about the whole story of Creation. Up until this time, there's nothing to contradict that story. This could be potentially the first step. And as far as the IC is concerned, based on the hints in Sejinn Kody's story, it's potentially true (at least that Chihiro was behind Armageddon Reef). Merlin has from the beginning tried not to lie about what he was or where his knowledge came from. When Safehold finally knows the truth, he doesn't want to have lied to everyone. That doesn't mean he won't advance a narrative which he has hints might be true to finally get to reveal what the Archangels really were..

Remember, “If you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough”- Chicago Cubs first basemen, Mark Grace

Which is a quote used in the Prince Roger's series (March to the Stars) which the Author was a co-author on.