Post League Eridani

Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH Hasta seems like it should have more inherent capability against warships than those stealth drones. The drone stage can stealthily build up significant base velocity giving then the missile final stage, with its much higher acceleration combined with that base velocity, a better chance of punching through the point defense zones than the slower attack drones. So if presented with both even after the SLN realized it needed to go with raiding where GA forces largely weren't they might have picked Hasta over the older design. But absent Hasta I suspect if they'd remembered or been re-presented the older design they'd have now snapped it up given the changed circumstances.

GloriousRuse wrote:Even Honor is a violator - the early books make it clear it is a commander's privilege to dump their data before surrendering. Honor at some point begins routinely demanding data not be dumped, under pain of death, during surrender neogitations. A modern equivalent might be telling a prisoner that if they do not give more than name, rank, and identification, you will kill them.

Is she a war criminal, or has what is acceptable moved past the codifications of the EE? Either way you answer, it does not speak well to the idea that simply updating the EE will make certain actions/horrors/crimes go away.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:If Haven was in the truce situation with Manticore and ended up with a good reason to start fighting the League, things could have gotten dicy for the League.
Haven's weapons and tactics, it's ship tech, the present experience level of the Haven Navy would have made it formidable against SLN.
[snip]
Haven DOES have deep attack logistic experience and capasity -we saw it- and it has a lot of ships. If Haven is takeing pods to war on the SL, it will also have ammuntion ships stuffed with them. Recall that SLN hasn't gotten the word yet. They also have no idea just what the range or effectiveness of the Haven missiles are, particulary in the hands of someone who has been fighting with Manticore for those many years. [snip]

Though it we assume this is before Haven cracked the MDM tech then their missiles are slower and hence shorter ranged than the SLNs.

SLN Trbuchet's were weapons with:
47,600/95,200g and 7.5 million km range
Havens SDMs had improved from their pre-war:
42,500/85,000g and 6.7 million km range to:
44,750/85,550g and 7.1 million km range
That still lagged behind the RMN's final capital SDMs with their:
46,000/92,000g and 7.3 million km range

That said, Haven's missile defenses were miles better than the SLNs and towed pods, even with slightly shorter range, would be devastating to the SLN.

Though if the SLN realize how vulnerable those pods are to nearby nukes they could exploit their 400,000 km range advantage to try to wreck those pods before Haven gets close enough to launch them. Even a closing velocity of nearly 0.1c would give time for a few powered SLN salvos to reach Haven's ships before Haven got into their own missile range.
The hit percentages wouldn't be great at that range, but the SLN might still manage to tear holes in the towed pods.

Still, even if/when the League figures out how to strip Haven of most pods each Havenite SD is probably worth 2-4 League ones. So the League would need a lot of numeric superiority to win those fights.



(Almost more interesting would be if Haven had already completed SD(P)s but did not yet have an MDM design to fill those pods. Then they've got range inferiority but the sustainable ability to keep rolling SDM pods once they reach their own missile range)

Fox2! wrote:As State Sec ships operating under State Sec, not People's Navy, command, would they be considered the equivalent of "unprivileged combatants" under the Deneb Accord? (somebody on another board complained once when I called Isis fighters "unlawful combatants", since there is no definition of lawful vs. unlawful combatants in the Geneva and Hague conventions. Rather, those who comply with the requirements of the Conventions are considered "privileged". By extension, those who do not comply with the Conventions are considered "unprivileged". In common usage, "lawful" or "legal" vs "unlawful" or "illegal" combatants.) And unprivileged combatants can be treated as pirates are: short walk out an air lock without benefit of a skin suit. If you are lucky, they will grace you with a pulser dart behind the ear before opening the bay doors.

Fox2! wrote:As State Sec ships operating under State Sec, not People's Navy, command, would they be considered the equivalent of "unprivileged combatants" under the Deneb Accord? (somebody on another board complained once when I called Isis fighters "unlawful combatants", since there is no definition of lawful vs. unlawful combatants in the Geneva and Hague conventions. Rather, those who comply with the requirements of the Conventions are considered "privileged". By extension, those who do not comply with the Conventions are onsidered "unprivileged". In common usage, "lawful" or "legal" vs "unlawful" or "illegal" combatants.) And unprivileged combatants can be treated as pirates are: short walk out an air lock without benefit of a skin suit. If you are lucky, they will grace you with a pulser dart behind the ear before opening the bay doors.

Loren Pechtel wrote:That's how I see the battles of Cerberus. While she--and many of her troops--are foreign this is basically an escape from kidnapping, not an act of war. Their captors were operating outside proper Havenite authority, they get no protection.

chapter 14 wrote:"I didn't say that," Honor replied. "Captain Benson's given me some idea of how badly the Peeps have abused their prisoners, and I've had a little experience of the same sort myself, even before the Peeps grabbed me. But the fact that they've seen fit to violate the Deneb Accords doesn't absolve me, as a Manticoran officer, from my legal obligation to observe them. I almost forgot that once. And even though I felt then—and feel now—that I was completely justified on a personal level, it would have been a violation of my oath as an officer. I'm not going to let it happen again, Commodore Ramirez. Not on my watch."
"Then you are—" Ramirez began, but Honor interrupted.
"Let me finish, Commodore!" she said sharply, and he paused. "As I say, I must observe the Deneb Accords, but if I recall correctly, the Accords make specific provision for the punishment of those who violate them so long as due process is observed. I realize that most legal authorities interpret that as meaning that those accused of violations should be tried in civilian courts following the end of hostilities. We, however, find ourselves in a wartime situation . . . and I feel quite sure there are sufficient officers on Hell, drawn from any number of military organizations, for us to empanel a proper court-martial."
"Court-martial?" Ramirez repeated, and she nodded.
"Exactly. Please understand that any court empaneled under my authority will be just that: a court in which all the legal proprieties, including the rights of the accused, will be properly safeguarded. And assuming that guilty verdicts are returned, the sentences handed down will be those properly provided for in the relevant law codes. We will act as civilized human beings, and we will punish wrongdoing, not simply compound it with barbarisms of our own."

tlb wrote:This is simply not true; StateSec is a proper Havenite military authority, as Honor makes clear in Echoes of Honor.

chapter 14 wrote:"And assuming that guilty verdicts are returned, the sentences handed down will be those properly provided for in the relevant law codes. We will act as civilized human beings, and we will punish wrongdoing, not simply compound it with barbarisms of our own."

Fox2! wrote:Presumably, any capital sentences would have been carried out before Honor and company departed from Hell orbit. What happened to those who received less than capital sentences? Were they left locked in a brig someplace on Hell, or in the star system (presumably SS had a brig or two on-planet to confine their own miscreants)? Or were they loaded into the brigs of the ESN's ships and taken to Manticore, to serve their sentences in Manticoran custody.

Fox2! wrote:This is simply not true; StateSec is a proper Havenite military authority, as Honor makes clear in Echoes of Honor.

chapter 14 wrote:"And assuming that guilty verdicts are returned, the sentences handed down will be those properly provided for in the relevant law codes. We will act as civilized human beings, and we will punish wrongdoing, not simply compound it with barbarisms of our own."

tlb wrote: This is simply not true; StateSec is a proper Havenite military authority, as Honor makes clear in Echoes of Honor.

chapter 14 wrote:"And assuming that guilty verdicts are returned, the sentences handed down will be those properly provided for in the relevant law codes. We will act as civilized human beings, and we will punish wrongdoing, not simply compound it with barbarisms of our own."

Fox2! wrote:Presumably, any capital sentences would have been carried out before Honor and company departed from Hell orbit. What happened to those who received less than capital sentences? Were they left locked in a brig someplace on Hell, or in the star system (presumably SS had a brig or two on-planet to confine their own miscreants)? Or were they loaded into the brigs of the ESN's ships and taken to Manticore, to serve their sentences in Manticoran custody.

stewart wrote:Two points --

1) State Security was a security arm and uniformed service of the PRH (not ROH) but State Sec itself does not appear to abide by or operate under the Deneb Accords -- parallel to WWII Gestapo with respect to Geneva; not respecting the limits of the Accords, they do not enjoy its protections.

2) During the Courts Martial scenes in Echos of Honor, it is noted that at least one conviction required that the SS Guard be returned to Alliance space to serve out his sentence (likely the best result for the individual rather than falling into Theisman's hands later....)