Post League Eridani

tlb wrote:I have found a definitive statement, where Honor is about to meet Tourville as a POW after the Battle of Manticore, in Mission of Honor, chapter 2:

Nor did it change the fact that Honor had demanded the surrender of his intact databases as the price for sparing his surviving superdreadnoughts. She'd been within her rights to stipulate whatever terms she chose, under the rules of war, yet she'd known when she issued the demand that she was stepping beyond the customary usages of war. It was traditional—and generally expected—that any officer who surrendered his command would purge his computers first. And, she was forced to concede, she'd had Alistair McKeon do just that with his own data when she'd ordered him to surrender his ship to Tourville.

Jonathan_S wrote:But frankly, if Tourville had hung up on her, purged the cores, and had his ships all strike their wedged the odds that any Manticoran force, much less one commanded by Honor herself, would refuse to accept that clear signal of surrender seems vanishingly infinitesimal. Just can't see the RMN shooting up ships that have struck their wedges regardless of whether they'd ignored instructions to not purge their systems.

Not sure whether the surrendered officers involved could get tried for their actions afterwards; but if they could I can't imagine that it would be a capital crime.

I agree and have said the same sort of thing earlier in this thread. I do think that in this sort of situation with no chance of escape and the choice is surrender (under terms) or be destroyed, the officers and crew can be treated as though they were already prisoners and so liable to follow orders. So I think that there could be a penalty attached, but definitely not execution. Note that Honor's forces will not know whether the computer cores have been purged until they enter the captured ships (unless that kills the ability to communicate).

Regarding Honor's demand to Tourville not to dump the cores. I think there's an important distinction in this case that's being missed. This is the Battle of Manticore! Honor is supremely pissed, and rightly so, because intruders have invaded her Home System. The Havenites are inside Harrington's Home. The rules of engagement change when you enter someone's home. I can't shoot an asshole stooging outside my window, but once he enters my home, he better damn well do anything I say, up to and including not flushing his insides on my plush pile carpeting if I demand it, because now I have a right to disconnect him from the world.

The Battle of Manticore didn't take place in some remote system on the front or behind enemy lines, it is right smack dab in the Home System, where the rules of engagement are on thin ice. Even when considering the second BoM, decency towards the SLN goes out the window if they fail to capitulate to demands -- as witnessed.

It isn't about ROE or rights when defending one's Home System, it is about war! IMO. Ask Honor!

If you bring a computer inside my home, you better not touch that damn computer if I've got the drop on you and tell you. . . Nay!

Don't move! Don't flinch! Don't sneeze MF!

tlb wrote:

chapter 46 wrote:"Good." The right side of Harrington's mouth curled to bare her teeth in what might conceivably have been described—by someone other than Rachel Yang—as a smile. "Then there's just one more thing, Citizen Commodore. You will inform your captains that any effort to abandon ship, scuttle their vessels, or wreck their computer nets will also be considered justification for the use of lethal force. Your ships are our prizes, and they are StateSec vessels. As such, and in light of what State Security has done to the prisoners on this planet, neither they nor your personnel are protected in our eyes by the Deneb Accords. They would be wise to remember that."

She could be implying that if the crews wish her to give them the benefits of required treatment, then they had better be very well behaved; without necessarily stating that what she asked them to do was illegal under the Accords.
Clearly at this point they are prisoners without the ability to carry out an escape. However the act of transferring them to the surface of the planet was a delicate one that required their cooperation (as a latter incident emphasized).

As State Sec ships operating under State Sec, not People's Navy, command, would they be considered the equivalent of "unprivileged combatants" under the Deneb Accord? (somebody on another board complained once when I called Isis fighters "unlawful combatants", since there is no definition of lawful vs. unlawful combatants in the Geneva and Hague conventions. Rather, those who comply with the requirements of the Conventions are considered "privileged". By extension, those who do not comply with the Conventions are considered "unprivileged". In common usage, "lawful" or "legal" vs "unlawful" or "illegal" combatants.) And unprivileged combatants can be treated as pirates are: short walk out an air lock without benefit of a skin suit. If you are lucky, they will grace you with a pulser dart behind the ear before opening the bay doors.

I would think that as State Security is an arm of the ROH government the State Sec personnel would be considered as lawful combatants.

tlb wrote:

chapter 46 wrote: "Good." The right side of Harrington's mouth curled to bare her teeth in what might conceivably have been described—by someone other than Rachel Yang—as a smile. "Then there's just one more thing, Citizen Commodore. You will inform your captains that any effort to abandon ship, scuttle their vessels, or wreck their computer nets will also be considered justification for the use of lethal force. Your ships are our prizes, and they are StateSec vessels. As such, and in light of what State Security has done to the prisoners on this planet, neither they nor your personnel are protected in our eyes by the Deneb Accords. They would be wise to remember that."

She could be implying that if the crews wish her to give them the benefits of required treatment, then they had better be very well behaved; without necessarily stating that what she asked them to do was illegal under the Accords.
Clearly at this point they are prisoners without the ability to carry out an escape. However the act of transferring them to the surface of the planet was a delicate one that required their cooperation (as a latter incident emphasized).

Fox2! wrote:As State Sec ships operating under State Sec, not People's Navy, command, would they be considered the equivalent of "unprivileged combatants" under the Deneb Accord? (somebody on another board complained once when I called Isis fighters "unlawful combatants", since there is no definition of lawful vs. unlawful combatants in the Geneva and Hague conventions. Rather, those who comply with the requirements of the Conventions are considered "privileged". By extension, those who do not comply with the Conventions are considered "unprivileged". In common usage, "lawful" or "legal" vs "unlawful" or "illegal" combatants.) And unprivileged combatants can be treated as pirates are: short walk out an air lock without benefit of a skin suit. If you are lucky, they will grace you with a pulser dart behind the ear before opening the bay doors.

If you look at the quote from chapter 14, it is clear that Honor feels that the StateSec personnel are covered by the Deneb Accords.

chapter 14 wrote:"I didn't say that," Honor replied. "Captain Benson's given me some idea of how badly the Peeps have abused their prisoners, and I've had a little experience of the same sort myself, even before the Peeps grabbed me. But the fact that they've seen fit to violate the Deneb Accords doesn't absolve me, as a Manticoran officer, from my legal obligation to observe them. I almost forgot that once. And even though I felt then—and feel now—that I was completely justified on a personal level, it would have been a violation of my oath as an officer. I'm not going to let it happen again, Commodore Ramirez. Not on my watch."
"Then you are—" Ramirez began, but Honor interrupted.
"Let me finish, Commodore!" she said sharply, and he paused. "As I say, I must observe the Deneb Accords, but if I recall correctly, the Accords make specific provision for the punishment of those who violate them so long as due process is observed. I realize that most legal authorities interpret that as meaning that those accused of violations should be tried in civilian courts following the end of hostilities. We, however, find ourselves in a wartime situation . . . and I feel quite sure there are sufficient officers on Hell, drawn from any number of military organizations, for us to empanel a proper court-martial."

An analogy from WWII might be the difference between the regular German Army and the Waffen-SS (Schutzstaffel, literally "Protection Squadron"). I wonder if the "SS" of StateSec was intentional?

tlb wrote:An analogy from WWII might be the difference between the regular German Army and the Waffen-SS (Schutzstaffel, literally "Protection Squadron"). I wonder if the "SS" of StateSec was intentional?

Along with Rob S. Pierre and St. Just. And the whole Committee for Public Safety. All stolen inspired by the depths of the Terror. Just didn't have a diminutive Corsican to kick around.

Fox2! wrote:

tlb wrote:An analogy from WWII might be the difference between the regular German Army and the Waffen-SS (Schutzstaffel, literally "Protection Squadron"). I wonder if the "SS" of StateSec was intentional?

Along with Rob S. Pierre and St. Just. And the whole Committee for Public Safety. All stolen inspired by the depths of the Terror. Just didn't have a diminutive Corsican to kick around.

Oh, they did. It's just when the (remnants of) the Committee of Public safety kicked her with a nuke she stayed kicked.

RFC has been open about McQueen being the Napoleon red herring; err, counterpart. She just got blown up before taking control and (presumably) invading the ramshackle League. Not sure how the Peep's would freeze to death trying that, but Weber probably could have come up with something if he'd actually planned to continue mirroring the Napoleonic wars.

If Haven was in the truce situation with Manticore and ended up with a good reason to start fighting the League, things could have gotten dicy for the League.
Haven's weapons and tactics, it's ship tech, the present experience level of the Haven Navy would have made it formidable against SLN.

This was, after all, the Alignment Plan. Haven takes the Haven Quadrant, then cleans house in the rotton League. It got messed up with Manticore turning out to both have done all that prep work and building itself up with size (and capacity of navy) and ends up both stalling then beating back Haven.

You have to figure that Haven would not just declare war on the League and then go fight about it. Haven would have to -at that point- fairly clearly have to go for the direct kill and strike at both Sol and several BF/ FF bases to cripple the active fleet and cut the heart out of the Kraken.
How many squadrons of active duty SDs and things like BCs, CH, CA, would acutaly be hot at Sol? There is that massive reserve fleet but we know that's essentilay usless- they are at best in mothballs with some being upgraded and some cycling out as having been "improved" but there are not prepaired crews to man them.
Haven DOES have deep attack logistic experience and capasity -we saw it- and it has a lot of ships. If Haven is takeing pods to war on the SL, it will also have ammuntion ships stuffed with them. Recall that SLN hasn't gotten the word yet. They also have no idea just what the range or effectiveness of the Haven missiles are, particulary in the hands of someone who has been fighting with Manticore for those many years.

Haven has done this before. A lot. Has a program to set up administrative governments. Intervention Battalions and a lot of ships designed to deliver them in company with the Naval Attack Forces.
How many of the Core Worlds would be set up to repel/drive off a Havenite fleet sent (with occupations troops and administrators) which would be aiming at destroying if not capturing all SLN vessels in-system and taking local control.

You are talking massive hostage situations where Haven at least controls the orbitals, having swept the military out and who (and from where) is someone going to put together a fleet to retake Sol.

Also remember that Berrogose is building up Operation Sepoy, an OFS Gov who expects the League to shatter and fall under it's own corruption and is taking the Maya Sector out as his own. He EXPECTS that things are going to soon get so bad that probably nobody is going to come trying to recover Maya as they will be too busy defending themselves or consolidating their own conquests.

It's what the Alignment was building. Heck, from the Alignment's point of view, even a failed strike by Haven would be usefull to pop the RF up as a savior and trigger that ugly dogfight of all the various compeating powers jumping to rip off their share of a bleeding body.

Brigade XO wrote:If Haven was in the truce situation with Manticore and ended up with a good reason to start fighting the League, things could have gotten dicy for the League.
Haven's weapons and tactics, it's ship tech, the present experience level of the Haven Navy would have made it formidable against SLN.

This was, after all, the Alignment Plan. Haven takes the Haven Quadrant, then cleans house in the rotton League. It got messed up with Manticore turning out to both have done all that prep work and building itself up with size (and capacity of navy) and ends up both stalling then beating back Haven.

You have to figure that Haven would not just declare war on the League and then go fight about it. Haven would have to -at that point- fairly clearly have to go for the direct kill and strike at both Sol and several BF/ FF bases to cripple the active fleet and cut the heart out of the Kraken.
How many squadrons of active duty SDs and things like BCs, CH, CA, would acutaly be hot at Sol? There is that massive reserve fleet but we know that's essentilay usless- they are at best in mothballs with some being upgraded and some cycling out as having been "improved" but there are not prepaired crews to man them.
Haven DOES have deep attack logistic experience and capasity -we saw it- and it has a lot of ships. If Haven is takeing pods to war on the SL, it will also have ammuntion ships stuffed with them. Recall that SLN hasn't gotten the word yet. They also have no idea just what the range or effectiveness of the Haven missiles are, particulary in the hands of someone who has been fighting with Manticore for those many years.

Haven has done this before. A lot. Has a program to set up administrative governments. Intervention Battalions and a lot of ships designed to deliver them in company with the Naval Attack Forces.
How many of the Core Worlds would be set up to repel/drive off a Havenite fleet sent (with occupations troops and administrators) which would be aiming at destroying if not capturing all SLN vessels in-system and taking local control.

You are talking massive hostage situations where Haven at least controls the orbitals, having swept the military out and who (and from where) is someone going to put together a fleet to retake Sol.

Also remember that Berrogose is building up Operation Sepoy, an OFS Gov who expects the League to shatter and fall under it's own corruption and is taking the Maya Sector out as his own. He EXPECTS that things are going to soon get so bad that probably nobody is going to come trying to recover Maya as they will be too busy defending themselves or consolidating their own conquests.

It's what the Alignment was building. Heck, from the Alignment's point of view, even a failed strike by Haven would be usefull to pop the RF up as a savior and trigger that ugly dogfight of all the various compeating powers jumping to rip off their share of a bleeding body.

I would expect Haven's conquest and occupation of the Solarian League core systems would be analogous to Germany's conquest and occupation of France. The SL citizenry would have welcomed the conquerers with open thighs.

Once Haven had seized control of the production capacity of Sol system along with a dozen or so other SL core worlds and their technology base, the SEM and the IAE would have been up shit creek without a paddle.

Brigade XO wrote:If Haven was in the truce situation with Manticore and ended up with a good reason to start fighting the League, things could have gotten dicy for the League.
Haven's weapons and tactics, it's ship tech, the present experience level of the Haven Navy would have made it formidable against SLN.
[snip]
Haven DOES have deep attack logistic experience and capasity -we saw it- and it has a lot of ships. If Haven is takeing pods to war on the SL, it will also have ammuntion ships stuffed with them. Recall that SLN hasn't gotten the word yet. They also have no idea just what the range or effectiveness of the Haven missiles are, particulary in the hands of someone who has been fighting with Manticore for those many years. [snip]

Though it we assume this is before Haven cracked the MDM tech then their missiles are slower and hence shorter ranged than the SLNs.

SLN Trbuchet's were weapons with:
47,600/95,200g and 7.5 million km range
Havens SDMs had improved from their pre-war:
42,500/85,000g and 6.7 million km range to:
44,750/85,550g and 7.1 million km range
That still lagged behind the RMN's final capital SDMs with their:
46,000/92,000g and 7.3 million km range

That said, Haven's missile defenses were miles better than the SLNs and towed pods, even with slightly shorter range, would be devastating to the SLN.

Though if the SLN realize how vulnerable those pods are to nearby nukes they could exploit their 400,000 km range advantage to try to wreck those pods before Haven gets close enough to launch them. Even a closing velocity of nearly 0.1c would give time for a few powered SLN salvos to reach Haven's ships before Haven got into their own missile range.
The hit percentages wouldn't be great at that range, but the SLN might still manage to tear holes in the towed pods.

Still, even if/when the League figures out how to strip Haven of most pods each Havenite SD is probably worth 2-4 League ones. So the League would need a lot of numeric superiority to win those fights.



(Almost more interesting would be if Haven had already completed SD(P)s but did not yet have an MDM design to fill those pods. Then they've got range inferiority but the sustainable ability to keep rolling SDM pods once they reach their own missile range)