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The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten

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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:33 am

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:<snip>I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream<snip>


No, there clearly is NOT a reason to put a human brain in a missile in the Honorverse. Why are you insisting on pushing this?


You misunderstood that paragraph, or rather I didn't make it clear. Considering the posts I'm yielding to the notion that there may not be a reason to do so -- which makes the question of whether the MA can solve the inherent problems of it, moot. IOW, I am agreeing with the class this time, lest someone can pull a rabbit out of the hat. But! I'd like to leave the notion of the MA using kamikaze tactics of some sort on the table.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:53 am

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cthia wrote:<snip>I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream<snip>

Theemile wrote:No, there clearly is NOT a reason to put a human brain in a missile in the Honorverse. Why are you insisting on pushing this?

cthia wrote:You misunderstood that paragraph, or rather I didn't make it clear. Considering the posts I'm yielding to the notion that there may not be a reason to do so -- which makes the question of whether the MA can solve the inherent problems of it, moot. IOW, I am agreeing with the class this time, lest someone can pull a rabbit out of the hat. But! I'd like to leave the notion of the MA using kamikaze tactics of some sort on the table.

Aside from the nanotech suicides, we have found in the books examples of unwitting suicide by agents of the MA (sending a signal that blows up their orbital station) and examples of willing suicide (blowing up a space ship to avoid capture and interrogation). So it is not a stretch to imagine a kamikaze attack in the future.

What might be a stretch is imagining that the MA geneticists would engineer a special human just for the purpose of being a kamikaze pilot. I think modifying a spider drive vessel to be a "brain" ship (or troll ship, if you prefer) is less of a stretch, because it is doable and confers an ongoing benefit of improving the otherwise sluggish acceleration.

But just because I do not see a need for a suicidal pilot, that does not mean the MA would not imagine a use.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:43 pm

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cthia wrote:I truly appreciate your points Jonathan. All of man must communicate before we can truly hope to rebuild the Tower of Babel.

I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream. If there is no advantage, then it doesn't matter even if the MAlign can solve all of the problems posed by the objections posited here. It all becomes a moot point.

I thought, perhaps in error, that the notion could solve the FTL problem because actual brains would be making the final decisions downstream. But that's mostly important in ship-to-ship attacks. Ship to ship engagements probably should be left up to the computer, unless missile lock is lost. But ballistic attacks on infrastructure - orbital or planetary - it seems, could benefit from the targeting of a brain since enemy warships may not be able to get anywhere near the planet to finely target key military objections beyond the Queen's Palace. E.g., power distribution nodes, dams, bridges, government structures, etc. I'm hoping the Malign can build on the notion of rewriting the book on EEV, first posited here, and KEWing a planet with little damage to the planet and minimal loss of civilian lives.

Certainly, missiles shouldn't become a write-off because of lost missile lock. A human brain can help reacquire something.

At any rate, I remain hopeful that kamikaze attacks are just waiting to be implemented into MAlign warfare, and I seriously think it could be highly successful if implemented correctly.

About that Apocalypse Troll thing. Is it high time Sci-Fi bleed in elements from different worlds as movies and television has? Supergirl has a guest appearance by the Flash in a couple episodes and it wasn't an unprecedented notion, not by a long shot. It happens quite a bit. Is there a reason an author can't do some of the same? The MAlign certainly has the capability and the resources if anyone has. Tlb's notion a few clicks upstream is simply brilliant and certainly within the purview and the MO of the MAlign. IMO.

There has been a few ideas detailing how the MA can engage the enemy with kamikaze tactics. Any more?
Well if you could get a ship's tac section with its crew and literal tons of computer support and big data collection from every missile's sensors downrange that'd be a huge benefit.

An Apollo control missile in autonomous mode is better than a normal missile because it had bigger computers and gets data from more than one missile. But it's still not as good as the ship (or fort) tac section which is why ACMs within FTL range are more effective that AMCs beyond it. The tac section has even more computer support and gets data from even more missiles.

So being able to launch a tac section downrange with your missiles would be a major advantage. But that's too big to go that quick and too expensive to be expendable (even if the human lives and their training is of zero value to you). However at least in ambushes the MAlign doesn't need to send the tac section with the missiles because they can use the super stealthy Ghosts as forward fire controllers to provide a tac section and its supporting computers close enough that lightspeed lag isn't an issue.

(And missiles lose lock and wander off because of limited sensor view. Much of their flight the enemy is too far away to see with onboard sensors. The best brain in the universe is going to have trouble picking a new target that's still invisible to them. When missiles do see a new target they attempt to engage it - unless they were ordered not to do so to reduce risk of unwanted collateral damage. Unfortunately often times the missile is moving so fast that by the time its sensors can see a target it doesn't have enough acceleration to maneuver within laserhead range of that target so it goes flashing past without being able to attack. A human can't fix that either)

But a single human in a missile doesn't have the sensor reach or the computing support to provide the accuracy advantages that a shipboard tac section does when they're providing support to the missile's targeting computer. So kamikaze missiles still seems like a solution in search of a problem in the Honorverse.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:44 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:<snip>I should get this out there. Clearly, there simply has to be some worthwhile advantage in putting a human brain in a manned missile downstream<snip>

Theemile wrote:No, there clearly is NOT a reason to put a human brain in a missile in the Honorverse. Why are you insisting on pushing this?

cthia wrote:You misunderstood that paragraph, or rather I didn't make it clear. Considering the posts I'm yielding to the notion that there may not be a reason to do so -- which makes the question of whether the MA can solve the inherent problems of it, moot. IOW, I am agreeing with the class this time, lest someone can pull a rabbit out of the hat. But! I'd like to leave the notion of the MA using kamikaze tactics of some sort on the table.

Aside from the nanotech suicides, we have found in the books examples of unwitting suicide by agents of the MA (sending a signal that blows up their orbital station) and examples of willing suicide (blowing up a space ship to avoid capture and interrogation). So it is not a stretch to imagine a kamikaze attack in the future.

What might be a stretch is imagining that the MA geneticists would engineer a special human just for the purpose of being a kamikaze pilot. I think modifying a spider drive vessel to be a "brain" ship (or troll ship, if you prefer) is less of a stretch, because it is doable and confers an ongoing benefit of improving the otherwise sluggish acceleration.

But just because I do not see a need for a suicidal pilot, that does not mean the MA would not imagine a use.

Nice points. Also about the suicide protocols which skirt awfully close to the kamikaze in every respect except willingness. I don't think kamikaze attacks are too far off the horizon either. Inferior navies have to find a way to get inside a bigger boxer's reach to at least have hopes of doing some damage. My niece, still fuming over the can-o-worms opened in the Ramblings and Musings thread . . .

"The SLN already proved that kamikaze tactics don't work." :lol:

****** *

Oh my! You've reminded me of a notion posited by one of my Sci-Fi hating friends some time ago.

My apology. This guy hates Sci-Fi as bad as my sisters do, but he was in on a certain conversation some time ago. He posits that a human brain may be able to be made more efficient than a computer. Man is making headways into autism and the research on savant syndrome is full-speed ahead. The MAlign may be able to intentionally create brains that are autistic savants on steroids with abilities that rival computers. In fact, the MA may already have such data in a line that was culled. Why cull a line if the brain has utility? An example of a solution waiting for a problem.

Then it'll be raining Dustin Hoffmans. It's raining rain-men. LOL
Clearly for sake of completeness, you see. Military minds destroy no data.

Now for the grand finale . . .

Hey Rocky . . .

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat . . .

Nothing up my sleeve . . . Presto! . . .

Is it possible to sneak a freighter in-system full of deadly manned missiles that can be released quickly into space and have them just as quickly target ships, space stations and military objectives on planet? Once the missiles fire, the kamikaze slags, yet his job was simply to target something important. The pristine target selection of human brains in CIC has just increased to thousands!

Now, how do you release that many missiles quickly into space?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:56 pm

cthia
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Silly me. :roll:


Inconspicuous freighter = Trojan Horse

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:10 pm

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cthia wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:If your the Alignment and you want to do this all again, there is theoreticaly a better way. You could even bring one of your big spider drive ships (hello MAN Leonard Detweiler) into a system undetected and then launch a large flock of spider drive pods and graser torpedos as you move around an arc withing the system to spread the approch vectors and time the engine starts and flight times of the weapos to impact their targets withing about 5 to 10 minutes. The GT's are effectively invisible all the way to when the open fire and the "normal" missiles in the pods get run in using spiders (which could then be rammed into things or just self destruct post-missle flush.
You have just done Oyster Bay the way it seems the tactial use of the Lenny Det's may be intended. Ghost in, deploy your weapons and be well out of harms way be able to sit on the system's edge and watch the chaos and destruction without seriously endangering our capital ships. Then you slink away unobserved, rearm and go screw over some other system.
Heck you could pull this a couple of times and the Renaissance Factor could show up soon after and be the hero for humanitarinal aid and taking the malled system under it's protection.
Slezzy move, right up there with OFS making economic aid for someting they instigated the reason for putting systems in ecomomic slavery & servitude of being a Protecotrate as the price of your survival. Very Alignment. After all that's just a planet of normal humans and they are not even as worthile to you as cattle.


Galactic Sapper, Brigade XO. Both of you have submitted interesting takes on the kamikaze attack. It's interesting that the new warfare can utilize varying methods of kamikaze attacks, depending on target and goals.

@Brigade XO. Howzabout manned graser torps?

They've taking the gloves off and they fight dirty. And smart. A new take on tactical warfare.

We're always talking about the Manties having too easy a time of it. We have a thread raging on that concern now. David has a real chance to mold the MA out of substance. The Alphas are no pushovers no matter what you think of their ideals. The MA has always come at a problem from the opposite end.

"We think smart, not hard."

The varying tactics of kamikaze warfare could unleash a new breed of terror on the galaxy. Catching the unsuspecting GA with their pants down, dumbstruck and knocked off balance. Can the Salamander adjust in time to an entirely different paradigm in tactical warfare?

SUN TZU WOULD BE PROUD.

Wouldn't it be simply divine if the MAlign were so cocky and sure of their tech (for good reason) that Detweiler hypers into the Grayson system and issues an ultimatum. Wait'll the Salamander see what the MAlign has done to her beloved Grayson.

Deliver a message to the Salamander . . .

"You cost us our father. We came to play."


In no way do I present this as a kamikaze attack or weapon. The spider drive ships are funtioning more or less the way submarines were used in WW II excpet that nobody has any way of finding them OR THE SPIDER DRIVE WEAPONS THEY ARE LAUNCHING at this time.

The only time a target or defender would find out that either a Lenny Det or GT was there is when the torpedo fires on it's target and then destroys itself. These are standoff weapons with apparently stealth capability (other than the spider drives) that only a very lucky optic or sensor sweep is going to get any reading off them prior to them firing. Even then, a defender which sees the target hit by a long duration--seconds ---- graser beam would have to react to where it thought the weapon was at time if firing and where it MIGHT have come from. No impeller signature, no active sensor targeting. The weapons doesn't even have to have come from a reciprocal vector of the beam.
There is no trail of bubbles in the water to show the torpedoe's trail. There isn't even an estimate on what the range of the torpedo (or at what speed it might have approached) so you would have a really difficult time saying the ship that fired it has to be within a radius of x million km.
The spider ship is probably already going to be heading for someplace else right after they launch the weapon(s) and the defenders currently have no way to track that.
This isn't a suicide mission, this is striking (in the dark at long range) and slinking away, quite possilbly to do it again and again in the same system.
What exactly do you think might happen to a warship that observed the attack and came screaming in on the best guess for the potential locaton of the launching ship---radiating active sensors like sunshine at midnight and a massive millitary wedge screaming I'M HERE? If the defender gets anywhere close, it is quite likely to meet 3 or 5 GT, sent to greet it and make sure that it blows up as soon as it enters the engagement range of the grasers.

No Kamikaze.
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Re: The Malign and the Japanese Kaiten
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:52 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:What exactly do you think might happen to a warship that observed the attack and came screaming in on the best guess for the potential locaton of the launching ship---radiating active sensors like sunshine at midnight and a massive millitary wedge screaming I'M HERE? If the defender gets anywhere close, it is quite likely to meet 3 or 5 GT, sent to greet it and make sure that it blows up as soon as it enters the engagement range of the grasers.

No Kamikaze.

It’s worse than that. They also have missile pods...
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