Post League Eridani

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I was just using the real world example to make the point that the invincible SLN guarenteeing enforcement of the EE made the Honorverse a safe place to wage wars of conquest and subject backwards systems to exploitation. Now that the SLN is no longer the 800# galactic gorilla and has been revealed as a perpetrator of EE violations which destroys its moral authority, systems that are threatened with conquest will seriously consider launching quick, devastating strikes against their would be conquerors.

I have tried to address this before when others claimed the Edict made interstellar wars and imperialism "joyful, fun and profitable enterprises". The Eridani Edict cannot by itself prevent "world busting" as a reaction to conquest. A world that has the ability can let the would-be conquistador know that forcing a surrender will unleash the hidden rogue units to retaliate. Since there will be no government remaining to enforce the Edict against, there is nothing for the Edict "police" force to do. This could be particularly effective against a multi-world entity (such as the PRH) trying to subjugate a single world.

The Alignment has it's Spider Drive technology and is building capital ships to carry and fire spider drive weapons. It has the Ghost scouts/scout-bombers and could also continue the existing Sharks in service as both training ships and operational system attack ships because they could still do the same things they did at Manticore and Grayson systems in probably the majority of the SL systems and the various independents.

Just exactly what was the plan for the Alignment to use the Lenny Det's in support of, or as a distraction from the Reaissance Faction's accumulating a massive number of systems under an alliance to shield said systems from the chaos and persumed descente into warlordism and a city-state level of warfare on an interstellar level?
Was it to use these invisable warships to smash what local SDFs were available as well as decapitate local system governments by KEW strikes on the plaitary capitals? Was it to devastate such SDFs or actual navies which were sucessfully holding at bay or even making headway at containing such warlordism or opportunism from agressive systems - which make the RF more important even if the RF was nowhere close to being in direct conflict with them?
Are the Lenny Sets to be something like a terror fleet of individual submarines to strike undetected and vanish at shipping or orbital facilities across sections of the SL, Verge etc to promote terror and distrust of everybody by everybody else?

We have this feeling -based on what we have seen so far- that the Alignment really wants to remain in the shadows and act as puppet master overlords far enough removed from their subjects that there isn't a clear target to strike at. Any rebellion or resistance is intended to spend itself on a single planitary government or perhaps affiliated systems but burn out - perhaps assisted by a few (or dozens) of KEW strikes on a planet where local terrorists have taken control and risen to the Bloodbath level of the Terror in the French Revolution and "somebody" had to go in and beat the place back to late Stone Age to stop the madness?

We don't know.

Brigade XO wrote:The Alignment has it's Spider Drive technology and is building capital ships to carry and fire spider drive weapons. It has the Ghost scouts/scout-bombers and could also continue the existing Sharks in service as both training ships and operational system attack ships because they could still do the same things they did at Manticore and Grayson systems in probably the majority of the SL systems and the various independents.

Just exactly what was the plan for the Alignment to use the Lenny Det's in support of, or as a distraction from the Reaissance Faction's accumulating a massive number of systems under an alliance to shield said systems from the chaos and persumed descente into warlordism and a city-state level of warfare on an interstellar level?
Was it to use these invisable warships to smash what local SDFs were available as well as decapitate local system governments by KEW strikes on the plaitary capitals? Was it to devastate such SDFs or actual navies which were sucessfully holding at bay or even making headway at containing such warlordism or opportunism from agressive systems - which make the RF more important even if the RF was nowhere close to being in direct conflict with them?
Are the Lenny Sets to be something like a terror fleet of individual submarines to strike undetected and vanish at shipping or orbital facilities across sections of the SL, Verge etc to promote terror and distrust of everybody by everybody else?

We have this feeling -based on what we have seen so far- that the Alignment really wants to remain in the shadows and act as puppet master overlords far enough removed from their subjects that there isn't a clear target to strike at. Any rebellion or resistance is intended to spend itself on a single planitary government or perhaps affiliated systems but burn out - perhaps assisted by a few (or dozens) of KEW strikes on a planet where local terrorists have taken control and risen to the Bloodbath level of the Terror in the French Revolution and "somebody" had to go in and beat the place back to late Stone Age to stop the madness?

We don't know.

Interesting post Brigade, speculating on all of the possible uses of the Lenny Dets. Seem they're far from limited utility, not boding well for the GA.

What ever happened to the rest of Warnike's outcasts? These are the kinds of rag tag troublemakers who I'd expect capable of such a vengeful crime of passion, well, along with the Masadans that is.

In fact, I always thought Warnicke's band of misfits would do exactly that - KEW.

In all engagements involving an aggressor barreling in on the planet, the Commander on the spot has no option but to go out and meet the threat, respecting that the objectives of the threat may be to KEW the planet. As D'Orville pretty much stated in the BOM.

Brigade XO wrote:Just exactly what was the plan for the Alignment to use the Lenny Det's in support of, ...

The only plan we know of is the original "Oyster Bay," which would have included Haven (w/ developed worlds). I don't recall if the plan included the Andermani as well.

Manticore and Grayson would have suffered scaled up attacks as well.

The Lenny Dets would seem to only really be useful for sneak attacks, like Oyster Bay, and those have really limited utility.

Weird Harold wrote:The Lenny Dets would seem to only really be useful for sneak attacks, like Oyster Bay, and those have really limited utility.

There is always a use for surprise.

David has very carefully ignored the obvious implication of a weapon that can get to within energy range. For example, that Mantie fleet that was parked out at the junction with all their wedges down? Consider 100 graser torpedoes dropped off from a freighter...

If we knew what other new weapons the Lenny Det's had beyond a variation of the Cataphacts and th graser torpedos we might have better chance of understanding the designed tactical role. About the only thing (other than being much larger than the Sharks) was that they could hold the eraser toprpedos in internal magazines and -we guess- tube launch them.
That means that they may or may not have been designed to work with the Ghost ships with the Ghosts again working to develope the targeting and the LD's dropping the ballistic sets of weapons then deployed gts for powered attack of more intricate approches to targest.
Yah, forts or warships around wormhole termini would be workable for a spider drive capital ship with that kind of internal capasity and launch ability.
We also have absoluitly no clue at this point if the RF of the Alignment Navy (Darius version) has anything approching the capability of the SEM counter missiles or ECM.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The Lenny Dets would seem to only really be useful for sneak attacks, like Oyster Bay, and those have really limited utility.

There is always a use for surprise.

David has very carefully ignored the obvious implication of a weapon that can get to within energy range. For example, that Mantie fleet that was parked out at the junction with all their wedges down? Consider 100 graser torpedoes dropped off from a freighter...

And you should be able to use them for anything submarines have classically tried to do - including in fleet engagements where you try to maneuver to get the enemy fleet to run into a patrolling submarine line.

Also graser torps have enough range than you can hang back beyond the hyper limit and should be able to steer a torp for a down the throat shot at any ship heading towards the hyper limit anywhere even semi-near you - you don't need to restrict your targets to stationary ones despite your weapons being slower than the targets if the attack geometry is right.

Yes they seem closer to snipers crossed with mobile minefields than conventional ships of the wall, but there are still lots of ways to use them, whether or not in conjunction with conventional forces, to give your enemies a bad day. (To the extent that the gloves have come off and you're willing to expose that there are unseen attackers marauding around)

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="Weird Harold"]
The Lenny Dets would seem to only really be useful for sneak attacks, like Oyster Bay, and those have really limited utility.[/quote

There is always a use for surprise.

David has very carefully ignored the obvious implication of a weapon that can get to within energy range. For example, that Mantie fleet that was parked out at the junction with all their wedges down? Consider 100 graser torpedoes dropped off from a freighter...

And you should be able to use them for anything submarines have classically tried to do - including in fleet engagements where you try to maneuver to get the enemy fleet to run into a patrolling submarine line.

The possibilities listed are all true, but the Detweilers have only mentioned the original Oyster Bay as an intended use -- lamenting that they weren't ready and that oyster bay had to be scaled back.

Incidentally, Technodyne has formally introduced Stealth Missiles as a real world open-to-buy technology. Even forces without MAlign tech levels now have quite a few new interesting tactical options, and strategic options for that matter.

For one, to the original concept of EEVs, the fact you can now start your EEV attempt tens of seconds away from impact as opposed to tens of minutes obviously increases the potential for even a small force to deliver killing blows to large and well defended systems. And given the launch origins can be obfuscated, all sorts infowar options open up as well. This alone probably shifts the WMD (WTD?) math to an offense favorable paradigm.

Even without resorting to EEVs, the out-limit attacker gains even more advantages. The “dangerous” portion of a long launch was that ballistic phase missiles are easily detected and picked off. Now range is effectively only limited by sensor accuracy and targeting data. So every time an out limit enemy approaches, the entire system of targets has to be considered at risk. Are they going after the orbital infrastructure? Those merchants over there? The warships? Did they even fire? Are they loaded with a handful of stealth misfiled, oodles of traditional missiles, or a mix? If I commit my CM fire in full when a classic missile wave arrives, will I have any chance when/if stealth missiles pop their drives? How many CM missiles/clusters can I hold back before the classic missile wave knocks me out? Will I finish what looks like a normal naval engagemwnt only to have three hundred bomb pumped warheads savage something forty minutes later? Two hours? Can’t know.

So either you have to defend everything and put everything on alert, or gamble. Meanwhile, the attacker’s can mass against whatever he feels like, and no one will see the attack coming until killing time. Eventually you either hit the defender where he is weak, or just wear out the defenders through constant potential threat.

All of this starts to favor the attacker pretty significantly. As a rule of thumb, when the offense is dominant, politics are not stable.