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Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Silverwall   » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:26 pm

Silverwall
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SilverbladeTE wrote:Silverwall

After WW2, radar controlled gunfire made small boats suicidal risks vs attacking larger warships, that was the big issue! ;)

And, yer wrong, Sweden and others stuck to small ships because their geography etc supported their use


The small ships only doctrine was enfoced by the massive power of the red airforce. Larger ships became just one big target. Prior to this Sweden did invest in heavier ships as preferred for naval use. Even then the combat ships are still in the 300-600 ton range rather than the 50-80 ton range of the swarm ship concept. The only vessels in that range in the Sweedish military are armed with 2-3 50 cal BMGs and maybe a light grenade launcher. These are police action craft or maybe for landing raiders not for surface actions of the MGB or MTB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB90-clas ... ault_craft

We have also swerved away somewhat from the original concept of the thread which was using tender launched small craft offensivly. All my comments have been in that context and I feel that in an offensive role with no electronics or air power larger is better 95% of the time. Most of the value in small torpedo boats is in point defence of the litorial area of a friendly shore.
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:19 am

SilverbladeTE
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Charis has a huge empire to defend.
Budgets are limited even with the Moihra Lode.
Charis, Emerald, Corisane, Tarot and Chisholm all need there own specific defence fleet and on top of that they need cruisers and destroyers for trade protection, scouting and projection.
Escort ships are much much more important than "battle wagons"

Defencive use of torpedo/mine boats is exceptionally good value for money.

As I noted there is a very serious issue the British Establishment in their arrogance screwed up:
By not giving more freedom/respect and industry to various parts of the Commonwealth, so as to keep them dependent and basically being arrogant jerks, Britain's leaders prevented the Commonwealth having enough local military production and stores etc to defend themselves.

Charisian Empire needs local production, it's absolutely vital, as I've said. Relying on Old Charis alone to produce vessels etc is crazy dangerous and dumb, so, the IC from what has been said so far, looks like they are aware of this and are pushing for local production.

It takes years, decades, for ship building firms to learn the trade well, build dry docks etc.
Working on small ships/boats are a good start.

Small vessels are easier to replace, so for a dispersed Empire, it makes defence easier. Weeks or even days to build a boat, weeks for a corvette, if they have experience in building and local gun manufacturing.
But if your battleship gets sunk...it takes years.


Same issues also apply to Charis' enemies.
After the pasting the Cbruch got at sea only Dholar did any good and had to get a bit unconventional.
Also there's bound to be areas where torpedo or mine boats can utilize geography to off set Charisan advantages...same when Charis defends.


End of WW2, radar controlled and proximity fuses really did spell the end, at the time, for small boats etc.
A Des Moines crusier had 24 x 3" AA guns which also made damn dandy anti-ship guns too, any torpedo boat in 5 miles was gonna be sushi!
This NOT an issue in Safehold ;)

More modern gun and smaller but gets the idea of what post WW2 ship guns cod do to a PT boat
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rldn9Hvzih4
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:28 am

SilverbladeTE
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While the dangers of radar controlled guns made using torpedoes suicide, small.vessels using guided missiles were another matter.entirely.
Thus around Scandinavia and Baltic Sea large boats/small ships became really handy.
Yeah, not "PT boats" but the entire military system had evolved by then.

And from that....using unguided rockets are perhaps another weapon in the arsenal on Safehold?
Not as good as torpedoes and have serious issues, but not impossible either.
Something like a "Calliope" system, add blast shields to windows....


Also remember:
This is a fictional work, and daring-do is good, heroes or villains! ;)
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Chaser617   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:52 pm

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I still think that a 'steam sloop' (let's call destroyers this since I don't think the series of events leading up to the type being called destroyers will happen) of a round 1,000 tons maybe 1,500 with quick-fire main battery and a possible secondary armerment of locamotive torpedoes when or if they get reinvented combined with oil-fired boilers and later if possible geared turbines would be the better alternative.

From what I understand of the reading and I could be very very wrong Falcons are the equivalent of 'protected' cruisers of the late 1800s early 1900s.

A steam sloop would still be smaller and less expensive, especially if more of the new welding techniques were used in their hulls instead of rivets. Something the size of an old Mahan-class DD would still be smaller cheaper than a falcon it would still be able to fulfill more roles such as taking on fleet scouting like sale sloop like Fleetwing was as well as being used in massed squadron scale offensive attacks with locamotive torpedoes -- which in all Honesty is probably their least useful function -- and finally what I would think would be their most valuable contribution trade protection and convoy escort. You could probably get away with building smaller 'steam corvettes like a the Flower-class at(what an American would call a 'Destroyer Escort') if you wound up in a situation where you needed hulls *really* quickly and still come out ahead of anything like a steam powered Motor Torpedo Boat.
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:05 pm

SilverbladeTE
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Chaser617
Oh I agree the main thrust of building should be light oceanic ships for whole heap of reasons.
But until you have shipyards, experience.etc.necessary to build them....
And they shouldn't be all you build: defence in depth.

And for South Harchong and Desnair that applies doubly so.
Desnair found privateering profitable, so is likely to do it again.
And as noted, a disguised merchant transport that can send out attack boats....

Charis and its enemies may find clandestine raids from such swarm ships useful.
Cheap way for South Harchong to cause chaos to North Harchong and thus appease the Emperor's need for some "action" without risking expensive warships.

Bound to be folk who could be "volunteered for a suicide mission" in tyrannical countries....
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:01 pm

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To get a useful speed boats like these need hydoplaning hulls which means some sort of internal combustion engine (usually petrol) to generate massive power to weight ratios. Failure to achieve planing means that in anything other than a dead calm the larger ship is actually faster due to slamming, rolling and other hydrodynamic effects. This is what killed off the first generation steam torpedo boats of the late 1800s and why the (Torpedo boat) destroyer became a thing.

Until safehold marine engineering reaches high performance petrol/diesel engines (120+hp from a 1/2 ton engine) or truely insane steam plants the like of which we never built on earth the larger ships will always win.
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:22 am

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Silverwall wrote:To get a useful speed boats like these need hydoplaning hulls which means some sort of internal combustion engine ...


Turbinia

Long version
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Silverwall   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:11 am

Silverwall
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An amazing proof of concept but not a viable warship for a whole host of reasons including no space or displacement for weapons, lack of endurance etc.

What did the admiralty do with this tech? build 350 ton destroyers with 34k speed, meaningful endurance and an armament of 1 x 12pounder gun , 5x 6 lb guns and 2 torpedo tubes. Don't forget a useful destroyer (Relative to torpedo boats) does not have to be the 2k ton monsters of ww2. A useful high seas boat can be built for 600 tons and a not fully capable one like the Turbinia descendants above can come in at 350 tons.

In my previous post there is a reason I specified the light weight nature of the engines as part of the comment as this leave room for military stores of fuel, armaments, crew accommodations etc.

The RN didn't revisit light attack craft until the state of the art of lightweight engines improved during the great war with Aero style petrol engines.

Also don't keep repeating the stodgy battleship admirals argument, the RN in the run up to WW1 was leading the world in the adoption of new tech including: Turbines, aircraft, submarines etc if they didn't build smaller attack craft there was a valid reason for it.
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:46 am

Weird Harold
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Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Silverwall wrote:An amazing proof of concept but not a viable warship for a whole host of reasons including no space or displacement for weapons, lack of endurance etc.


The point was that it doesn't take an ICE to take advantage of a planing hull-form. Modern steam turbines aren't nearly the mass of Turbinia's engine, yet are orders of magnitude more powerful.
.
.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Spoilerish. "Swarm ship"
Post by Silverwall   » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:08 am

Silverwall
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:53 am

Weird Harold wrote:
Silverwall wrote:An amazing proof of concept but not a viable warship for a whole host of reasons including no space or displacement for weapons, lack of endurance etc.


The point was that it doesn't take an ICE to take advantage of a planing hull-form. Modern steam turbines aren't nearly the mass of Turbinia's engine, yet are orders of magnitude more powerful.


I don't care what can be done with modern tech, I care what can be done with no-electronic WW1 era tech which is what they have to work with.
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