Naval Monitors?

Considering RFC love of things British, naturally
I was wondering if we might see naval monitors ala Britain had in WW1 and 2 as shore bombardment and blockade units?
Extremely useful craft, much cheaper to build than a battleship, very shallow draft, etc


Since years are going by, I can imagine an improved design with oh maybe a pair of MKII quick firing 15" guns in a high turret
With 6 x 8" as adjuncts for shore bombardment perhaps or just 4" or 6" guns for defence
10 x 40mm Bofors dual mounts
22 x 20mm Oerlikon cannons in single mounts
Smaller guns maybe against enemy airships (if any) but mainly against torpedo or suicide boats
Very broad beam, very good compartmentalization, spotter balloon?

Of course that could be a later design
Start out with initial 12" gun design of current largest warships

Using knowledge of our world, Owl and Narhman the Naughty could improve defence against torpedoes, mines and suicide boat (those are big threat being as monitors are used close to shore so sneaky mine layers, fast attack boats of any kind are big risks)
as well as concerns of counter battery fire from land artillery probably of 6" to 10" size

One ponders if such monitors could get up the new Silkiah Canal...?
Oh wouldn't THAT be a surprise for slavering Siddermarkians, horrible Harchongians and dastardly Desnarians!

"Hm, that sounds like a train coming, sort of, doesn't it?"
Last words as a certain Harchong lord cops an express 15" ticket to Hell

SilverbladeTE wrote:Considering RFC love of things British, naturally
I was wondering if we might see naval monitors ala Britain had in WW1 and 2 as shore bombardment and blockade units?
Extremely useful craft, much cheaper to build than a battleship, very shallow draft, etc

Who on Safehold might build monitors?

The original monitor deployed by the Union during the Civil War was a proof-of-concept that inspired others.

But heavy gunned ships intended for coastal defense don't have to be monitors. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_defence_ship for various examples.

I don't see Charis needing them. Who else might be a candidate for building them? They are cheaper and faster to build than battleships, but are limited to coastal operation, and unsuited for blue water work.

I can see Desnair being interested, and likely Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo in Harchong. And their doing so would align with the IC's hidden agenda, where Charisian shipbuilders will happily build and sell any sort of steamship to other realms except warships. Everyone else will think that only natural, as it's what they'd do, and the notion Charis wants them to build their own warships to spread industrialization will simply not occur to them.

But it will be quite some time before anyone else is building warships that might be a threat to the ICN, and I don't see monitors or other coastal defense ships presenting a real problem for the ICN if they do have to go remonstrate with the builders.
______
Dennis

DMcCunney wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:Considering RFC love of things British, naturally
I was wondering if we might see naval monitors ala Britain had in WW1 and 2 as shore bombardment and blockade units?
Extremely useful craft, much cheaper to build than a battleship, very shallow draft, etc

Who on Safehold might build monitors?

The original monitor deployed by the Union during the Civil War was a proof-of-concept that inspired others.

But heavy gunned ships intended for coastal defense don't have to be monitors. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_defence_ship for various examples.

I don't see Charis needing them. Who else might be a candidate for building them? They are cheaper and faster to build than battleships, but are limited to coastal operation, and unsuited for blue water work.

I can see Desnair being interested, and likely Emperor Zhyou-Zhwo in Harchong. And their doing so would align with the IC's hidden agenda, where Charisian shipbuilders will happily build and sell any sort of steamship to other realms except warships. Everyone else will think that only natural, as it's what they'd do, and the notion Charis wants them to build their own warships to spread industrialization will simply not occur to them.

But it will be quite some time before anyone else is building warships that might be a threat to the ICN, and I don't see monitors or other coastal defense ships presenting a real problem for the ICN if they do have to go remonstrate with the builders.
______
Dennis

I agree with Dennis. S Harchong and Desnair will need such ships to defend Shwei Bay and the Gulf of Jahras. They don't need to project force to defend those areas. They need floating batteries with a minimum of mobility and seaworthyness for those calmer waters.

The task is straight forward enough. Build a ship strong enough to fire the most powerful weapon one can build and protected the thickest armour one can possibly manufacture. However slow it is doesn't matter if used in conjunction with shore defenses.

I don't see Dohlar going that route. Looking at Gorath Bay, the RDN is better off using turbine torpedo boats operating out of those shoals in conjunction with heavy shore batteries. We know that steam turbine compressors are being used prior to AtSoT. Given the development of the RDN along small but fast boats to offset Charisian size, adapting their naval doctrine to their civilian technical capabilities seems inevitable. Those ships begin as anti-minesweepers and develop from there. Forcing the heavier ships close to protect the minesweepers means, those ships are under fire from shore longer.

Last war, a shore bombardment and heavy blockade ship would have come in DAMN handy for the Charisians, you know...hence Halcombe Barnes etc brown water ironclads were used for such in 2 areas, iirc

British found them exceptionally useful in WW2, problem was the "battleship" admirals hated anything except their behemoths and AA defences were woefully poor on every nation's ships as the war began.


Ability to drop extremely heavy calibre shells extremely accurately under any weather conditions to ranges over 15 miles is not something to sneeze at, you know.
Smashing canal.locks, railway bridges as well as infantry support makes them very useful.
The blast and thus psychological effects of such huge shells are very damaging on poor berks on the receiving end.

Charis going to get.dragged into the coming maelstrom one way or another.
It's vital to have a range of options, not just simply "battle wagons" and.it takes years to build ships, training and evolve doctrine.
So Charis needs to wrok on this NOW.
Again, remember the Canal Raid...pre-planning and supply of useful tools is essential.



Oh they should be the basis of a small flotilla of small vessels, including "motor gun boats" both for protection and, for naval/commando raiding parties....

Another point to consider is a political and practical one:

If Charis uses guns from older ships, or smaller calibres than main battleships so as to avoid a strategic problem
They can "sell/gift" these smaller monitors to Dholar or other allies
Especially if they work them up and trade them as a flotilla

Say 1 monitor, 2 supply ships, a depot ship, 3 or 4 destroyers or corvettes and a dozen gun boats
Long as they don't have guns capable of ewualing current Charisian battleships, bjt still very capable versus other navies, the Inner Circle can give reasonable LOCAL protection to an ally without it later being a strategic threat (not meant for oceanic.combat etc)

Also this same flotilla idea is good for local production in say Corisande and Chisholm, maybe only needing main guns shipped in perhaps
Thus local yards get work, experience in building, good for economy and provides local defence

Hm?

I see Charis wanting to see Dohlar establish their own industry, especially in advanced manufacturing. Spoilers would give things away so avoiding going further into why.

However, I could see Charis finding 2 or 3 mainland realms that have some ports that are growing in importance who would love to purchase the 'core' of a navy for defense. Think of small 'flotillas' for each port composed of one updated/modernized River-class cruiser and 4 or 5 smaller destroyers/frigates. That would be plenty to deal with any renewed piracy, as well as protect the coastal areas around growing ports from raiding squadrons. They certainly wouldn't be enough to stop a determined attack, but they would be more than enough to block/hinder/delay a raiding force when combined with shore batteries. They would also allow for these smaller realms to provide limited convoy protection as needed.

The benefit for Charis, of course, is that friendly realms will be able to defend themselves better. Charis won't have to have deployments all over the world protecting its interests, as its friends can take care of there own regions. And it gets more people exposed to the technology and trying to replicate it - with working models (and likely advisers) to help in the process.

Erls wrote:I see Charis wanting to see Dohlar establish their own industry, especially in advanced manufacturing. Spoilers would give things away so avoiding going further into why.

However, I could see Charis finding 2 or 3 mainland realms that have some ports that are growing in importance who would love to purchase the 'core' of a navy for defense. Think of small 'flotillas' for each port composed of one updated/modernized River-class cruiser and 4 or 5 smaller destroyers/frigates. That would be plenty to deal with any renewed piracy, as well as protect the coastal areas around growing ports from raiding squadrons. They certainly wouldn't be enough to stop a determined attack, but they would be more than enough to block/hinder/delay a raiding force when combined with shore batteries. They would also allow for these smaller realms to provide limited convoy protection as needed.

The benefit for Charis, of course, is that friendly realms will be able to defend themselves better. Charis won't have to have deployments all over the world protecting its interests, as its friends can take care of there own regions. And it gets more people exposed to the technology and trying to replicate it - with working models (and likely advisers) to help in the process.

Yeah that makes sense

North harchong doesn't and won't have capacity for large warship building for.some time even with Charisian help as it takes time to build infrastructure and crucially, worksforce to learn their trades
So they'll need help vs Southern raiders




Silkiah has similar problems, but also the new oceanic ship capacity canal will need heavy defences
So, twin turret monitors as were built after success of original USS Monitor, would be huge help there as well as suggesting they build concrete forts or defences near important locks with heavy and light guns.

Another interesting possibility is the "Landing craft support" for use as a larger gun boat
unlike smaller vessels and some monitor designs, the LCS is more ocean capable...though, not it's forte for sure. You'd want corvettes at least for oceanic patrol!


It is very shallow draft for such a vessel so could certainly use canals...however distinct lack of armour would make that risky as heck, so a job better suited normally to armoured monitors.
But some fire support is a lot better than no fire support and it can get to places no similarly armed ship could dream of.

obviously, replace the rockets with four 81mm mortars or two 105mm howitzers as was done for some of these ships.

Building these should be easy cheap and give allies a very nasty little vessel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Support
Since it was an actual vessel, maybe plans do exist in Owl's database?

Hey, how about "lend/lease", Charis offers these in return for basing rights from allies?

SilverbladeTE wrote:Last war, a shore bombardment and heavy blockade ship would have come in DAMN handy for the Charisians, you know...hence Halcombe Barnes etc brown water ironclads were used for such in 2 areas, iirc

British found them exceptionally useful in WW2, problem was the "battleship" admirals hated anything except their behemoths and AA defenses were woefully poor on every nation's ships as the war began.

The two monitors I can think of deployed by the British in WWII were both pre-WWI construction, and deployed because they were hulls that could be. Erebus participated in coastal bombardment in the Atlantic, and Terror (originally part of the British Asiatic fleet) was recalled to and did the same in the Mediterranean. But Terror was actually more of an anti-aircraft platform helping fend off attacks by the Italian air force, and it reached the point where the rifling on its 15" guns was totally worn away, with severe penalties in accuracy.

Ability to drop extremely heavy calibre shells extremely accurately under any weather conditions to ranges over 15 miles is not something to sneeze at, you know.
Smashing canal.locks, railway bridges as well as infantry support makes them very useful.
The blast and thus psychological effects of such huge shells are very damaging on poor berks on the receiving end.

Indeed, but first you must get those heavy gun platforms to where they will be used. Again monitors aren't blue water craft, and have severe range and speed limitations.

Current generation Charisian armored cruisers have been quite adequate. What you are talking about now isn't a monitor or coastal defense ship. You've just changed the mission profile in mid-stream, and now you are talking about an up-gunned armored cruiser or perhaps a true dreadnought design.

Charis going to get.dragged into the coming maelstrom one way or another.
It's vital to have a range of options, not just simply "battle wagons" and.it takes years to build ships, training and evolve doctrine.
So Charis needs to work on this NOW.

Okay, riddle me this: precisely who will Charis be fighting?

Charis is doing it's level best to turn Dohlor into a firm friend with no reason to fight Charis. (And Dohlor's navy was Charis's most effective opponent during the Jihad.)

Desnair hates Charis, but doesn't have a navy. and won't have one for quite some time.

Emperor Zhyou Zhou in Central Harchong also hates Charis, but also doesn't have a navy, and won't get one till well after Desnair.

Siddarmark is melting down, and while it likely has more foundry capacity than Desnair or Harchong, it's unlikely to be able to usefully employ that capacity in turning out warships.

Silkiah is firmly in the Charisian orbit, and while it may be interested in developing a navy, it will be looking askance at Siddarmark and Desnair as the possible threats, and assuming Charis and Dohlor might assist if either of those threats manifest.

Who else is there? Just what sort of capability do you think Charis will require, and in what time frame?
______
Dennis

I think that some here are confusing SilverbladeTE's concept of a monitor with the ships used in the US civil war.
I too loved the concept of a British bulldog type of offensive weapon, that could go in close and do shore bombardment while shrugging off defensive fire from the shore. Slow, and possibly even be towed into position, but able then to just slug it out.