Post League Eridani

Castenea wrote:Wrong, we first see the Pod based alpha strike that will become standard doctrine for both sides in SVW. SLN equipment is at a rough parity with RMN at this time. The SLN doctrine is behind the times, but the only new thing that the RMN has at the time of SVW is pods that fire single stage capital ship missiles with the same initial velocity as ship launched missiles. That SLN doctrine results in them having less effective ECM than the RMN, but this is not obvious to anyone untill after the first few battles.

Huh?

SLN missiles are wimpy two-stage missiles. GA missiles have full-weight warheads on top of a three stage missile--that's a lot more velocity. The SLN can fire first and the GA kill their ships before the SLN missiles get there--which means the GA missiles are under control and the SLN ones are not. The GA has FTL comms with it's missiles, making them much more deadly indeed. The GA EW birds have vastly more power available than the SLN ones, making them vastly more effective.

Had the SLN fired only as many missiles at Honor as she fired at the reserve she could have picked off the incoming missiles if she chose with very little chance of taking any damage. The SLN did it's best and didn't do much to Honor's salvo. (She fired roughly the number of missiles that there were capital ships in the reserve--and she got 90% of them. Counting the losses to Apollo and EW that means she must have been killing at least two ships per missile. The only way this makes any sense is if she fired enough to kill the whole reserve and 10% of them were picked off.)

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Castenea wrote:Wrong, we first see the Pod based alpha strike that will become standard doctrine for both sides in SVW. SLN equipment is at a rough parity with RMN at this time. ...

Huh?

SLN missiles are wimpy two-stage missiles.

Castenea is absolutely correct. The SLN didn't get the "wimpy two stage missiles" until Filareta was getting ready to leave for Manticore.

The RMN did NOT have Apollo, or even early three stage capacitor-powered MDMs, until long after SVW.

The main problem with the SLN throughout the series is that Battle Fleet weren't as good or well equipped as they (and the rest of the universe) thought they were. They relied on reputation for deterrence, and the relative effectiveness of Frontier Fleet in the few instances where they needed to make an example.

The Reserve existed mostly on paper with some gutted hulks to flesh out the illusion. There were a few squadrons that were fairly complete to show inspectors and VIPs but much of the reserve was neglected at best and robbed by corrupt custodians at worst.

Battle Fleet was overly proud of the "Fleet 2000 Upgrade" which in reality decreased the effectiveness of the ships. S&R on Adm Crandall's casualties illustrated the poor/lax maintenance practices.

Their training was largely scripted "passion plays" that hadn't changed for decades, maybe centuries.

Much of the failings of the SLN was the result of MAlign manipulations, but the end result was a comic opera Navy with nominal parity in equipment as of SVW. In actual combat ability, beyond localized thuggery by Frontier Fleet, they were totally out-classed by just about everyone in the Haven Sector.

The increasing technology gap after SVW just made things worse for the SLN.

[quote="ldwechsler"]

That's the problem with five hundred year old plans. They get outdated. The MAlign maneuvered to have HAVEN to the real damage after it took over Manticore.

---------------

It's not so much that MA had a 500 year old plan, but a 500 year strategy with short term plans attached to that strategy.
The real flaw as noted in the other threads was the MA implementing their end-game early -- accelerated Houdini, the limited Oyster Bay because the full plan was not ready, et.alia.

Daddy Albrect Detweiller wanted it NOW rather than later.

-- Stewart

Weird Harold wrote:Much of the failings of the SLN was the result of MAlign manipulations, but the end result was a comic opera Navy with nominal parity in equipment as of SVW. In actual combat ability, beyond localized thuggery by Frontier Fleet, they were totally out-classed by just about everyone in the Haven Sector.

The increasing technology gap after SVW just made things worse for the SLN.

And that nominal equipment parity tended to fall apart when looked at beyond a superficial level. It's hard to judge the effectiveness of ECM and decoys until put to the test of combat but even easy to measure things the SLN fell behind. Their missile and CM launchers had less than half the cyclic rate of Manticore's pre-war designs (and Haven didn't lag behind enough to be commented on).

So even before towed pods gave Manticore a first salvo advantage a Manticoran DN with the same number of tubes as a SLN SD could launch salvos at least twice as often. That not only puts more missiles on target over time but the tighter sequencing can potentially push back the defenses where they can't launch CMs fast enough to engage each salvo at max range. Plus slower CM launchers means you get less follow-up launches at missiles that leak through the first CMs. That's not a good combination for sustained missile combat even if your missiles and CMs were at least as good as Manticore's.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Much of the failings of the SLN was the result of MAlign manipulations, but the end result was a comic opera Navy with nominal parity in equipment as of SVW. In actual combat ability, beyond localized thuggery by Frontier Fleet, they were totally out-classed by just about everyone in the Haven Sector.

The increasing technology gap after SVW just made things worse for the SLN.

And that nominal equipment parity tended to fall apart when looked at beyond a superficial level. It's hard to judge the effectiveness of ECM and decoys until put to the test of combat but even easy to measure things the SLN fell behind. Their missile and CM launchers had less than half the cyclic rate of Manticore's pre-war designs (and Haven didn't lag behind enough to be commented on).

So even before towed pods gave Manticore a first salvo advantage a Manticoran DN with the same number of tubes as a SLN SD could launch salvos at least twice as often. That not only puts more missiles on target over time but the tighter sequencing can potentially push back the defenses where they can't launch CMs fast enough to engage each salvo at max range. Plus slower CM launchers means you get less follow-up launches at missiles that leak through the first CMs. That's not a good combination for sustained missile combat even if your missiles and CMs were at least as good as Manticore's.

I do wonder how long it would have taken the League to develop and deploy their own missile pods if they had encountered them in combat around SVW.

It took Haven five or six years from the Battle of Hancock. Their pods weren't as good, but they did level the playing field, producing an effective stalemate which lasted until Manticore simultaneously introduced SD(P)s and MDMs.

It took them far less than 5 years. They were using them early in the 1st war.

kzt wrote:It took them far less than 5 years. They were using them early in the 1st war.

The early books are light on hard dates, but the first mention of Peep pods is in book 7 (In Enemy Hands) when Honor has her talk with White Haven about why the WDB is intent on disrupting things with MDMs and SD(P)s.

In Enemy Hands wrote:we've had unconfirmed reports that the Peeps have begun deploying missile pods of their own."
"We have?" White Haven's voice was sharp. "I didn't see that mentioned in ONI's briefing documents!"
"As I say, it's unconfirmed . . . mainly because the ships we think may have encountered them haven't come home to tell us about them." Honor shrugged. "The Weapons Development Board was convinced of the accuracy of the reports in large part because they dovetailed so neatly with other, incremental improvements we're seeing across the board in the PN's technology

Still we know that's well after the 1907 PD 4th Yeltsin battle and getting close to the 1912 PD faked execution of Honor. So that's probably 4 or 5 years after the start of the war.

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:It took them far less than 5 years. They were using them early in the 1st war.

The early books are light on hard dates, but the first mention of Peep pods is in book 7 (In Enemy Hands) when Honor has her talk with White Haven about why the WDB is intent on disrupting things with MDMs and SD(P)s.

In Enemy Hands wrote:we've had unconfirmed reports that the Peeps have begun deploying missile pods of their own."
"We have?" White Haven's voice was sharp. "I didn't see that mentioned in ONI's briefing documents!"
"As I say, it's unconfirmed . . . mainly because the ships we think may have encountered them haven't come home to tell us about them." Honor shrugged. "The Weapons Development Board was convinced of the accuracy of the reports in large part because they dovetailed so neatly with other, incremental improvements we're seeing across the board in the PN's technology

Still we know that's well after the 1907 PD 4th Yeltsin battle and getting close to the 1912 PD faked execution of Honor. So that's probably 4 or 5 years after the start of the war.

Thanks for that. IEH is set around 1911, with first Hancock being in 1905. There's confirmation later in the same book that the Peeps' missile pods are new at this time.

In Enemy Hands wrote:"Well, it's just that I - that is, Citizen Commander Foraker and I - wondered if we could get HQ to agree to release some of the new missile pods to us?" There was a moment of silence, and Bogdanovich hurried on before anyone else could break it. "The thing is, Citizen Rear Admiral, that by now the Manties must be aware that we've got them. We know they've already been used closer to Trevor's Star, and we know HQ is planning to use them against any attack on Barnett. But what we don't know <snip>"

No Havenite pods were at Trevor's Star or the reports wouldn't be unconfirmed. Indeed, Hamish wouldn't be so surprised if he had encountered pods at Trevor's Star!

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Much of the failings of the SLN was the result of MAlign manipulations, but the end result was a comic opera Navy with nominal parity in equipment as of SVW. In actual combat ability, beyond localized thuggery by Frontier Fleet, they were totally out-classed by just about everyone in the Haven Sector.

The increasing technology gap after SVW just made things worse for the SLN.

And that nominal equipment parity tended to fall apart when looked at beyond a superficial level. It's hard to judge the effectiveness of ECM and decoys until put to the test of combat but even easy to measure things the SLN fell behind. Their missile and CM launchers had less than half the cyclic rate of Manticore's pre-war designs (and Haven didn't lag behind enough to be commented on).

So even before towed pods gave Manticore a first salvo advantage a Manticoran DN with the same number of tubes as a SLN SD could launch salvos at least twice as often. That not only puts more missiles on target over time but the tighter sequencing can potentially push back the defenses where they can't launch CMs fast enough to engage each salvo at max range. Plus slower CM launchers means you get less follow-up launches at missiles that leak through the first CMs. That's not a good combination for sustained missile combat even if your missiles and CMs were at least as good as Manticore's.

Of course the SLN was more concerned with how well an RMN Gryphon class SD or the GSN Benjamin the Great would fare against an SLN Vega or Scientist class SD in an energy range confrontation. My guess is that there would be parity. Even if the SLN became aware of SD(P)s, they probably would have fixated on Graser armament rather than missile armament because everyone knows that missiles are only good for long range sparring as a prelude to the decisive short range energy weapons massacre.

Weird Harold wrote:Much of the failings of the SLN was the result of MAlign manipulations, but the end result was a comic opera Navy with nominal parity in equipment as of SVW. In actual combat ability, beyond localized thuggery by Frontier Fleet, they were totally out-classed by just about everyone in the Haven Sector.

The increasing technology gap after SVW just made things worse for the SLN.

Jonathan_S wrote:And that nominal equipment parity tended to fall apart when looked at beyond a superficial level. It's hard to judge the effectiveness of ECM and decoys until put to the test of combat but even easy to measure things the SLN fell behind. Their missile and CM launchers had less than half the cyclic rate of Manticore's pre-war designs (and Haven didn't lag behind enough to be commented on).

So even before towed pods gave Manticore a first salvo advantage a Manticoran DN with the same number of tubes as a SLN SD could launch salvos at least twice as often. That not only puts more missiles on target over time but the tighter sequencing can potentially push back the defenses where they can't launch CMs fast enough to engage each salvo at max range. Plus slower CM launchers means you get less follow-up launches at missiles that leak through the first CMs. That's not a good combination for sustained missile combat even if your missiles and CMs were at least as good as Manticore's.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Of course the SLN was more concerned with how well an RMN Gryphon class SD or the GSN Benjamin the Great would fare against an SLN Vega or Scientist class SD in an energy range confrontation. My guess is that there would be parity. Even if the SLN became aware of SD(P)s, they probably would have fixated on Graser armament rather than missile armament because everyone knows that missiles are only good for long range sparring as a prelude to the decisive short range energy weapons massacre.

All of which emphasizes that the Malign failed miserably at the endgame of their plan; which was to have the SLN lose in a way that would also weaken the opponent, so the Renaissance Factor could sweep up the orphaned systems. Although they were monitoring the war in the Havenite Quadrant, is it possible that they did not really understand evolving naval strategy? After all their expertise was in the shot in the back, not the mechanics of slugging it out broadside to broadside. Even then Apollo must have shaken them up, but perhaps they thought Oyster Bay would rebalance the fight.

That does not seem reasonable to me, because their agent in the SLN was correctly pointing out the trends and the inability of the SLN to win a standup fight. I do not understand what the Malign thought the SLN could accomplish.