**major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document...

DMcCunney wrote:
(And thinking about it, we learned a while back that Paityr was descended for Schueler, and Schuerer's DNA is now scattered throughout a good part of Siddarmark.

It's not clear what sort of regulations about intimate relations between command crew and colonists existed, though I'd be surprised if there weren't some. Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)
______
Dennis

I've always assumed that Schueler's children were born on earth, and that he may have done something mildly unethical to get them added to the list of approved colonists.

Or that he just got really lucky, and his childen won slots in a lottery or something.

It could be something as simple as Schueler having been divorced or widowed, and the kids raised under their mother's name, so nobody thought to cross-check for biological fathers among the command staff when approving the kids for settlement. And Schueler presumably then kept silent about the conflict of interest when he found out.

runsforcelery wrote:
You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen.

The Gospel of Luke? Why specifically? Sounds rather more like Luke volume 2 - The Acts of the Apostles, functionally speaking.

runsforcelery wrote:

Krenn wrote:
As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

So, if Shan-wei never fell and Chihiro lied, his instructions on living in a fallen world don't apply. Yet, the instruction on living in an unfallen world don't apply either, because his lies have created a fallen world where the CoGA is instrumental in humanity's fall and continued downward spiral. It follows that any entity that resisted the unreformed CoGA is trying to stop that downward spiral.

If this is Operation Androcles when whatever returns does return, there will be unreconcilably deep divide on Safehold. Those archangels can prove this was not Schueler and Shan-Wei is up to her tricks corrupting humanity's goodness into evil. The IC's only hope is that the Returners won't push humanity into that. Very risky move.

If this is truly Schueler, then his words do support discarding at least the Books of Schueler and Chihiro as well as the inerrancy of the Writ. No Punishment. We still have the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng because his book was written for an fallen world. The problem is that the world is now fallen and Langehorn has shown his limitation in not being prepared for it. Either that or those instructions of his already account for a world that may fall. Still, the question of why comes into play. Not just why Chihiro did as he did, but why does a Langehorn unprepared for catastrophic change require the rules he does?

Both scenarios lead to important whys. Yet only if Schueler truly did send the visitation do those why questions get permanently directed back upon the CoGA. If this Androcles, the Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority.

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

So, if Shan-wei never fell and Chihiro lied, his instructions on living in a fallen world don't apply. Yet, the instruction on living in an unfallen world don't apply either, because his lies have created a fallen world where the CoGA is instrumental in humanity's fall and continued downward spiral. It follows that any entity that resisted the unreformed CoGA is trying to stop that downward spiral.

If this is Operation Androcles when whatever returns does return, there will be unreconcilably deep divide on Safehold. Those archangels can prove this was not Schueler and Shan-Wei is up to her tricks corrupting humanity's goodness into evil. The IC's only hope is that the Returners won't push humanity into that. Very risky move.

If this is truly Schueler, then his words do support discarding at least the Books of Schueler and Chihiro as well as the inerrancy of the Writ. No Punishment. We still have the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng because his book was written for an fallen world. The problem is that the world is now fallen and Langehorn has shown his limitation in not being prepared for it. Either that or those instructions of his already account for a world that may fall. Still, the question of why comes into play. Not just why Chihiro did as he did, but why does a Langehorn unprepared for catastrophic change require the rules he does?

Both scenarios lead to important whys. Yet only if Schueler truly did send the visitation do those why questions get permanently directed back upon the CoGA. If this Androcles, the Returners will force the re-assertion of the archangels and their authority.

of course, that raises the question of how much of that "fallen" versus "not-fallen" distinction actually made it into the holy writ and related church doctrinal sources, and how much of that distinction was obviously written or directed by Chihiro.

There are important differences between "How Langehorne presumably WOULD have thought about, classified, and explained the two different doctrinal states of being fallen vs not-fallen..."

vs "How Chihiro actually DID think about, classify and explain those doctrinal states..."

If Langehorne died before he had much time to explain things, it's kind of hard to claim that "Chihiro's definition of how to DEAL with a fallen world is all wrong, but Chihiro's explanation about what a fallen world even IS is still totally legitimate..."

Krenn wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:(And thinking about it, we learned a while back that Paityr was descended for Schueler, and Schuerer's DNA is now scattered throughout a good part of Siddarmark.

It's not clear what sort of regulations about intimate relations between command crew and colonists existed, though I'd be surprised if there weren't some. Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)

I've always assumed that Schueler's children were born on earth, and that he may have done something mildly unethical to get them added to the list of approved colonists.

It's made clear in TextEv that Cryo is a bad idea for children, and that the colonists were basically adults of various ages.

Or that he just got really lucky, and his childen won slots in a lottery or something.

See above about kids and cryo.

It could be something as simple as Schueler having been divorced or widowed, and the kids raised under their mother's name, so nobody thought to cross-check for biological fathers among the command staff when approving the kids for settlement. And Schueler presumably then kept silent about the conflict of interest when he found out.

I suppose it's possible, but I think Schueler actually impregnated a colonist female.

I'm mostly wondering if he were the only Archangel that might have done so.

And I don't assume all colonists were mated couples, so the possibility of unattached females an Archangel might be attracted to exists.

Though we also have the possibility the woman who had Schueler's kid was married and having an affair, and the kid produced would be assumed to be fathered by her husband. That would avoid questions about the paternity Schueler wouldn't want to answer. He might not have intended to make her pregnant in the first place, and his subsequent interactions with the Wyllsyn family might have guilt as a motivation.
______
Dennis

Tararoys wrote:So were either Chihiro or Schueler considered Archangels before the War Against The Fallen?

Take a look at the detail of the online Safehold map for the Temple Lands. There are an assortment of Episcopates. Some are "Episcopate of St. <someone>", and some are just "Episcopate of <someone>". It's a safe bet the <someones> were Archangels, and the St. <someones> were martyrs in the War Against the Fallen.

There are an assortment of <someones> not mentioned in the books so far, which imply that not all Archangels had books in the Holy Writ.

(And there's at least one I'm waiting to hear the backtory of. In At the Sign of Triumph, we hear about Grimaldi, who was apparently a real problem for Chihiro and company during the War, but we get the impression he joined the Fallen later. He might have been a supporter of Langhorne who couldn't stand Chihiro.)
______
Dennis

Krenn wrote:
of course, that raises the question of how much of that "fallen" versus "not-fallen" distinction actually made it into the holy writ and related church doctrinal sources, and how much of that distinction was obviously written or directed by Chihiro.

There are important differences between "How Langehorne presumably WOULD have thought about, classified, and explained the two different doctrinal states of being fallen vs not-fallen..."

vs "How Chihiro actually DID think about, classify and explain those doctrinal states..."

If Langehorne died before he had much time to explain things, it's kind of hard to claim that "Chihiro's definition of how to DEAL with a fallen world is all wrong, but Chihiro's explanation about what a fallen world even IS is still totally legitimate..."

SNAP!!!!
Schueler suspects that the greatest threat to the Temple will be his Visitation! He called his decsendents to deploy the KEY during the Temple's greatest need which is the after shocks of his revelation.

I suspect that the KEY holds the passwords to activate and control the full array of systems in the Temple. It also likely holds at least 1 digital personality of the command crew. My gut tells me it holds both Khody and Schueler. The KEY is the reason the OBS is not doing squat. The Temple needs to codes held in the key to activate. Schueler locked the Temple down after his and Chihiro's death using the KEY.

Khody's death was central to this development somehow. I can't wait to read about this.

Krenn wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:
(And thinking about it, we learned a while back that Paityr was descended for Schueler, and Schuerer's DNA is now scattered throughout a good part of Siddarmark.

It's not clear what sort of regulations about intimate relations between command crew and colonists existed, though I'd be surprised if there weren't some. Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)
______
Dennis

I've always assumed that Schueler's children were born on earth, and that he may have done something mildly unethical to get them added to the list of approved colonists.

Or that he just got really lucky, and his childen won slots in a lottery or something.

It could be something as simple as Schueler having been divorced or widowed, and the kids raised under their mother's name, so nobody thought to cross-check for biological fathers among the command staff when approving the kids for settlement. And Schueler presumably then kept silent about the conflict of interest when he found out.

Given the circumstance that led to the divorce of Nimue's parents, assuming I read that bit of textev correctly, I think it is highly unlikely that Schueler had children born on Earth. There were approximately no children born on earth, toward the end.

DMcCunney wrote:Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)
______
Dennis

If I had to guess? Probably all of them.

Or at least all the male ones anyway. It's kinda hard for the females to hide a pregnancy after all, but not impossible given Federation medical tech (just move the fetus to an artificial womb).

runsforcelery wrote:

Krenn wrote:
As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. (snip)

Isn't it really the equivalent of _Acts of the Apostles_? (true, that is generally considered to be the extension of _Gospel of Luke_).