**major spoilers** Speculation about a certain document...

DMcCunney wrote:Agreed on complication, but IIRC, Chihiro was essentially the editor of the Holy Writ, not the ghost writer. The final form was theoretically for Langhorne's approval as Administrator, but Langhorne's demise left him with the final say and he could edit as desired.
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Dennis

Per several mentions in Armaggedon Reef, Murayama Chihiro is the actual wordsmith who "wrote" most of the Books in the Writ, under general guidelines and supervsion from Langhorne and Bedard.

Also, most of the Writ was composed, distributed, and widely available BEFORE the war of the fallen: It was only afterwards that the last two books were added, The Books of Schueler and Chihiro.

The portions of the Writ that Chihiro presumably DIDN'T write would be things like the Book of Archangel Hastings, which is actually just a giant map, and not really written at all.

Krenn wrote:

DMcCunney wrote:Agreed on complication, but IIRC, Chihiro was essentially the editor of the Holy Writ, not the ghost writer. The final form was theoretically for Langhorne's approval as Administrator, but Langhorne's demise left him with the final say and he could edit as desired.
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Dennis

Per several mentions in Armaggedon Reef, Murayama Chihiro is the actual wordsmith who "wrote" most of the Books in the Writ, under general guidelines and supervsion from Langhorne and Bedard.

Also, most of the Writ was composed, distributed, and widely available BEFORE the war of the fallen: It was only afterwards that the last two books were added, The Books of Schueler and Chihiro.

The portions of the Writ that Chihiro presumably DIDN'T write would be things like the Book of Archangel Hastings, which is actually just a giant map, and not really written at all.

The question is, does Safehold at large know that? Merlin might know that, because Kau-yung told him, but I’m willing to bet five bucks that the Church thinks that each book was written by the archangel it is named for.

That has implications for how much of the Writ Schueler is calling into question when he calls Chihiro a liar. If Chihiro is thought to be responsible only for his book, then only his book is called into question. If Chihiro is thought to be responsible as the master editor and primary wordsmith of the Writ, then every portion he is known to have touched could potentially be corrupted.

Of course, even if Schueler only calls part of the Writ into question, the fact that Schueler did it by presenting a book written on exactly the same kind of holy paper as the Writ in the temple opens the following can of worms: if you have two holy artifacts, and one of them specifically repudiates the other, then it logically follows that at least one is a lie. That means the holy notepaper is no longer proof that something is telling the truth. So if one thing written on holy notepaper is a lie...why can’t all of it be lies?

So Schueler’s visitation may start by attacking part of the Writ, but may be the trigger that leads to questioning all of it.

Tararoys wrote:

Krenn wrote:
Per several mentions in Armaggedon Reef, Murayama Chihiro is the actual wordsmith who "wrote" most of the Books in the Writ, under general guidelines and supervsion from Langhorne and Bedard.

Also, most of the Writ was composed, distributed, and widely available BEFORE the war of the fallen: It was only afterwards that the last two books were added, The Books of Schueler and Chihiro.

The portions of the Writ that Chihiro presumably DIDN'T write would be things like the Book of Archangel Hastings, which is actually just a giant map, and not really written at all.

The question is, does Safehold at large know that? Merlin might know that, because Kau-yung told him, but I’m willing to bet five bucks that the Church thinks that each book was written by the archangel it is named for.

That has implications for how much of the Writ Schueler is calling into question when he calls Chihiro a liar. If Chihiro is thought to be responsible only for his book, then only his book is called into question. If Chihiro is thought to be responsible as the master editor and primary wordsmith of the Writ, then every portion he is known to have touched could potentially be corrupted.

Of course, even if Schueler only calls part of the Writ into question, the fact that Schueler did it by presenting a book written on exactly the same kind of holy paper as the Writ in the temple opens the following can of worms: if you have two holy artifacts, and one of them specifically repudiates the other, then it logically follows that at least one is a lie. That means the holy notepaper is no longer proof that something is telling the truth. So if one thing written on holy notepaper is a lie...why can’t all of it be lies?

So Schueler’s visitation may start by attacking part of the Writ, but may be the trigger that leads to questioning all of it.

As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

Krenn wrote:
As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Book of Acts. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

*Edited to correct a brain dead error.

I think it would be a better story if the appearance of Schuler was real and not part of Operation Androcoles. We would get the IC off balance and scrambling to find the producer of the Testimony, as well as more more thoughts about what else is littered around Zion.

runsforcelery wrote:

Krenn wrote:
As far as I know, most of Safehold doesn't know that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the writ.

Which gets us to the speculation part: Will Schueler's Testimony TELL people that Chihiro ghost-wrote most of the document?

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

So were either Chihiro or Schueler considered Archangels before the War Against The Fallen? Or did they get a promotion after Langhorne and Co. went boom?

I get the feeling that Chihiro was definitely a megalomaniacal crazy person on a power trip, but that you are deliberately keeping the waters muddy where Schueler is concerned. This is why your books are so much fun!

Tararoys wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:

You can think of the Book of Chihiro as functionally equivalent to the Gospel of Luke. It is the book which records the Archangel-eye view of the great deeds of the Archangels and pf the War Against the Fallen. The other books are all "how-to" books and instruction on how to live a "godly" life because that was all that was needed in a world which had not fallen, while all the Archangels were still alive and available for individual instruction and/or clarification. When all of them were murdered by the Great Traitor, poor Chihiro ( )was left to write the book which puts everything into context and provides instruction for how to live in a fallen world. while the Book of Schueler provides the "teeth" that the Proscriptions didn't really need while Langhorne was still around or one of the junior angels could drop in and say "Getting a bit too close to Proscribed actions, there, friend." Langhorne always stated that the Church had been created and ordained to carry on his great mission, but he didn't expect to get vaporized by a nuke long before he was ready to go totally hands-off, so he'd neverf written any "after my departure" instructions.

Chihiro and Scheueler took care of that for him.

See what a great job they did?

I think most of the timing in this is implied from the moment that Nimue first reflects that the original Writ included neither Scheueler nor Chirhiro.

So were either Chihiro or Schueler considered Archangels before the War Against The Fallen? Or did they get a promotion after Langhorne and Co. went boom?

I get the feeling that Chihiro was definitely a megalomaniacal crazy person on a power trip, but that you are deliberately keeping the waters muddy where Schueler is concerned. This is why your books are so much fun!

Both were senior members of the command crew; both were already archangels before the Commodore's nuke. Not all the archangels contributed to the Writ. Scheuler was an original member of Langhorne's council, had known him for years before Operation Ark, and was retained and moved up in the reshuffle before the rest of the colonization fleet joined the terraforming crews and the colonists were reawakened. Chihiro was Langhorne's chief of staff, not an original member of the council, who was promoted to it in the reshuffle. He and Schueler had worked together on several organizational aspetcs of Ark before they ever left Terra.

Without specifically addressing your comment about Chihiro's grip on reality, I will only say that quite a few of the command crew were badly damaged, psychologically, but what had happened to the human race in the 40 or so years before Ark. It would have been very difficult to find one of them who hadn't taken at least some damage, and some of them dealt with it better than others.

You might want to ask yourself just how damaged Nimue Alban was and how much healing both Merlin and Nimue have had to do on Safehold a thousand years after the Gbaba threat seems to have passed. Then think about the command crew responsible for getting the colonists through those thousand years.

I'd actually argue that in many ways, Nimue/Merlin has the easier task.

runsforcelery wrote:
Both were senior members of the command crew; both were already archangels before the Commodore's nuke. Not all the archangels contributed to the Writ. Scheuler was an original member of Langhorne's council, had known him for years before Operation Ark, and was retained and moved up in the reshuffle before the rest of the colonization fleet joined the terraforming crews and the colonists were reawakened. Chihiro was Langhorne's chief of staff, not an original member of the council, who was promoted to it in the reshuffle. He and Schueler had worked together on several organizational aspetcs of Ark before they ever left Terra.

Without specifically addressing your comment about Chihiro's grip on reality, I will only say that quite a few of the command crew were badly damaged, psychologically, but what had happened to the human race in the 40 or so years before Ark. It would have been very difficult to find one of them who hadn't taken at least some damage, and some of them dealt with it better than others.

You might want to ask yourself just how damaged Nimue Alban was and how much healing both Merlin and Nimue have had to do on Safehold a thousand years after the Gbaba threat seems to have passed. Then think about the command crew responsible for getting the colonists through those thousand years.

I'd actually argue that in many ways, Nimue/Merlin has the easier task.

after the Gbaba threat seems to have passed.

(my italics)
Oooh, sneaky!

Okay, that negates my idea that the 'lesser angel' in the first few scenes on Safehold was Chihiro. He was already an 'archangel' at that point. More seriously, it could also explain why the book of Schueler has a split personality. Mostly he's trying to tell people how to behave morally after what sounds like a bitter and confusing war.

But if the colonists even dare to hint at anything that could threaten their safety (such as heresy against the Church and the Prohibitions it safeguards) he goes full on PTSD.

Or, of course, the person who wrote that part of the Book of Schueler goes full on PTSD.

But what you've just said seems to imply that Schueler has good reason to trust both Langhorne and Chihiro. They're people he's worked with for years. If they say three hundred years is far too short a time, and the human race needs to dig as deep a hole as possible - he's likely to agree with them. He's likely to believe Chihiro's version of events, and he's going to be, er, annoyed at the Commodore.

Unless he did later find out that Chiriro was lying through his teeth..

Bluesqueak wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
Both were senior members of the command crew; both were already archangels before the Commodore's nuke. Not all the archangels contributed to the Writ. Scheuler was an original member of Langhorne's council, had known him for years before Operation Ark, and was retained and moved up in the reshuffle before the rest of the colonization fleet joined the terraforming crews and the colonists were reawakened. Chihiro was Langhorne's chief of staff, not an original member of the council, who was promoted to it in the reshuffle. He and Schueler had worked together on several organizational aspetcs of Ark before they ever left Terra.

Without specifically addressing your comment about Chihiro's grip on reality, I will only say that quite a few of the command crew were badly damaged, psychologically, but what had happened to the human race in the 40 or so years before Ark. It would have been very difficult to find one of them who hadn't taken at least some damage, and some of them dealt with it better than others.

You might want to ask yourself just how damaged Nimue Alban was and how much healing both Merlin and Nimue have had to do on Safehold a thousand years after the Gbaba threat seems to have passed. Then think about the command crew responsible for getting the colonists through those thousand years.

I'd actually argue that in many ways, Nimue/Merlin has the easier task.

after the Gbaba threat seems to have passed.

(my italics)
Oooh, sneaky!

Okay, that negates my idea that the 'lesser angel' in the first few scenes on Safehold was Chihiro. He was already an 'archangel' at that point. More seriously, it could also explain why the book of Schueler has a split personality. Mostly he's trying to tell people how to behave morally after what sounds like a bitter and confusing war.

But if the colonists even dare to hint at anything that could threaten their safety (such as heresy against the Church and the Prohibitions it safeguards) he goes full on PTSD.

Or, of course, the person who wrote that part of the Book of Schueler goes full on PTSD.

But what you've just said seems to imply that Schueler has good reason to trust both Langhorne and Chihiro. They're people he's worked with for years. If they say three hundred years is far too short a time, and the human race needs to dig as deep a hole as possible - he's likely to agree with them. He's likely to believe Chihiro's version of events, and he's going to be, er, annoyed at the Commodore.

Unless he did later find out that Chiriro was lying through his teeth..

Which brings us back to the original thread question....

What might the Lost Testimony of Schueler actually SAY?

It could leave most of the original writ intact, and ONLY accuse Chiriro of a few very specific lies, mostly occurring on or after Armageddon Reef.... or it might accuse Chiriro (gasp!) attempting to use the entire writ to subtly sabotage the idea of the scientific method...

It might try to redeem and agree with the Fallen and the Great Traitor, or it could just cast them as tragically misguided enemies who made a bad choice when dealing with Chihiro's lies...

It might limit it's doctrinal changes to rejecting the Punishment of Schueler and the worst powers of the Inquisition, or it might add some subtle additional changes, like personnel relationships with God, tolerance for heretics, things of that nature...

And of course, most of those "mights" assume that Schueler really did write this thing. If he DIDN'T write it, then things get really strange.

Krenn wrote:Which brings us back to the original thread question....

What might the Lost Testimony of Schueler actually SAY?

We await answers with bated breath...

It could leave most of the original writ intact, and ONLY accuse Chiriro of a few very specific lies, mostly occurring on or after Armageddon Reef.... or it might accuse Chiriro (gasp!) attempting to use the entire writ to subtly sabotage the idea of the scientific method...

The bit that struck me in Schueler's appearance is not only that he accused Chihiro of lying, but also stated Shan-Wei was not the entry point for evil, and was destroyed by the betrayer for refusing to turn from her original charge to make Safehold a place men could live on, and would not compromise her mission.

The claim that Shan-Wei was an innocent victim and someone else was the real bad person would be quite enough to make the CoGA go ballistic.

It's approximately equivalent to a claim that Satan was not God's opponent, another angel was the real bad person, and Satan got blamed after the fact for stuff he didn't do. Of course, making such a claim in Christianity faces the problem of coming up with "proof" any real Christian might accept.

On Safehold, it can be done, if an Honest-to-God Archangel appears before the faithful and says it, and leaves behind a book like the master copy of the Holy Writ in the Temple where he documents his assertions. (This assumes, of course, that it was Schueler appearing in his church, and not a sneaky high-tech IC plot inspired by Narhmann. For various reasons, I think that really was Schueler.)

It might try to redeem and agree with the Fallen and the Great Traitor, or it could just cast them as tragically misguided enemies who made a bad choice when dealing with Chihiro's lies...

One thing we don't know that I expect will be revealed at some point was the Fallen's agenda. What would they have done if they'd won?

It might limit it's doctrinal changes to rejecting the Punishment of Schueler and the worst powers of the Inquisition, or it might add some subtle additional changes, like personnel relationships with God, tolerance for heretics, things of that nature...

Enough, I think, if Schueler claims he didn't write the Punishment that appears in his book, and that it was an after the fact addition by Chihiro.

And of course, most of those "mights" assume that Schueler really did write this thing. If he DIDN'T write it, then things get really strange.

I think he did, but things are quite strange enough if he did.

Last but not least, Schueler's apparition states Shan Wei was innocent and destroyed by the betrayer for refusing to compromise, and that Chihiro lied. But he does not, in that appearance, call Chihiro the betrayer. He just says he lied. So who he claims the real betrayer was will be something revealed in his Testimony.

Given the nature of the charges, who could the betrayer be? The two candidates I see are Chihiro and Langhorne, and a claim that Langhorne overstepped his bounds and took it upon himself to modify God's Plan and was the true betrayer would really set the cat among the pigeons.

(And thinking about it, we learned a while back that Paityr was descended for Schueler, and Schuerer's DNA is now scattered throughout a good part of Siddarmark.

It's not clear what sort of regulations about intimate relations between command crew and colonists existed, though I'd be surprised if there weren't some. Schueler was likely on thin ice by impregnating a colonist female.

But given that he did, was he the only one? You have to wonder what other Archangels left bastards scattered around.)
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Dennis