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[Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoiler

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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Krenn   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:12 am

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Joat42 wrote:Hmm, it is a good point that gives rise to some questions.

For example, it seems most of military personnel was on Shan-Wei's side - did Langhorne and company just "purge" individual credentials or did they do a blanket purge for everyone?

Would civilian systems built after the war recognize ANY military credentials?

All this hinges on that all systems have a standard way of authentication against a distributed catalog of users.


Most of the really important stuff, such as the Orbital Bombardment System or the Temple, was presumably built under the assumption that the military branch was not especially trustworthy, and didn't need to have overrides.

So the OBS and the Temple, especially, was probably built using a high-level civilian AI, by a member of the Colonial Council, who would have specifically informed that AI that;

"As a senior-ranking politician, with lawful control over the military, I am hereby informing you that you are not a military asset, you are not subject to military orders, and that the relevant colonial laws do not give the military any special power over you. If the Military wants to issue some sort of order to you, they can either ask a civilian politician for permission, or they can attempt to forcibly hijack your systems, but you will NOT authenticate them, obey them, or actively cooperate with them unless doing so is otherwise consistent with previously issued orders by your civilian chain of command."
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:05 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Would civilian systems built after the war recognize ANY military credentials?


Even if it would, during the War Against the Fallen some filters clearly were established to exclude disloyal military from access. Most probably - since the number of Archangels and Angels was limited - they simply made a list of who could access what, and excluded everyone else.

P.S. And, anyway, the system would not recognize Nimue Alban, since she is - according to system knowledge - dead, and not in service anymore.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:05 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:Oh, when I refered to China having no colonies, I meant in the SAFEHOLD universe it had no colony worlds! ;)
Which iirc is mentioned in TFT? and is rather odd
By that point, Earth had a world government, and colonies would be Terran Federation colonies. There might have been colonies whose primary settlers were ethnic Chinese, but ethnicity != nationality. The idea of the nation state as a contiguous geographic area inhabited primarily by an ethnically homogeneous group speaking a common language is a relatively recent notion, historically speaking.

If China at that point is no longer a nation-state, but rather something like a province of a greater polity, can you properly speak of a Chinese colony? I don't personally think so, but the point can be argued either way, and comes back to what you mean by colony.
The fact that folk wonder why North Harchong was settled is mentioned several times in the books...this maybe foreshadowing
It may well be, We don't know what the process was that determined where the original enclaves were placed. It's possible (though I think it unlikely), that enclaves were deliberately scattered without attempts to make them all decent places to start from. Successfully expanding from the original enclave in North Harchong and taking over as much territory as the Harchong Empire eventually did was a challenge that produced a very hardy people, and that may have been the point.
South Harchong had Yu-Kwai (spelling?) Which we know was originally "New York"
But as I mentioned previously, I don't think anything should be read into that choice of name.
If the conflict was triggered by something as minor as petty jealousy, or a mistaken belief of bias or some such, well, that would fit.into Human Nature and the Demon Murphy! :p
Europeans had wars over pathetic scraps of "nothing much" in Africa as example, like 5 year olds over a toy or.blanket
Indeed, save that it's really hard to consider large slices of Africa as "nothing much". A good bit of the reason for European colonies in Africa revolved around access to resources not present in Europe.

And the earlier Spanish colonies in the New World were partly about access to gold and silver. In those days, economies were mercantilist, wealth was gold, and you got it by taking it away from someone else. Spain actually found gold (and more important, silver), and managed to crash their economy a couple of times by introducing too much, too fast. They failed to realize a major part of precious metal's value was scarcity, and the more there was circulating, the less valuable any given amount would be.
There could also be a darker purpose, such as using Langhorne's reprogramming as means to eventually control for a specific religion, government or whatever.
High risk of fanatic or agent suborning the project, which is another reason why Langhorne's warping things was so stupid and dangerous as it removed more safeguards from criminal/psychotic sabotage
I think we can agree Langhorne did a poor job of thinking things through.
As said every group has its nuts and extremists, so Chihiro may have acted from petty motives blown worse due to stress etc, or he could have planned all this from way back as an agent of government/religion/group or just as singular egotistical drive.
At a con, RFC said Chihiro had been a senior government official and a historian back on Earth. We know he was working to undermine Langhorne and supplant him as Administrator. Kau Yung's nuke provided a leadership gap Chihiro was happy to step into, and he was already Assistant Adminstrator and second in legal command.
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Krenn   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:55 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:As said every group has its nuts and extremists, so Chihiro may have acted from petty motives blown worse due to stress etc, or he could have planned all this from way back as an agent of government/religion/group or just as singular egotistical drive.
At a con, RFC said Chihiro had been a senior government official and a historian back on Earth. We know he was working to undermine Langhorne and supplant him as Administrator. Kau Yung's nuke provided a leadership gap Chihiro was happy to step into, and he was already Assistant Adminstrator and second in legal command.
______
Dennis



I am increasingly of the opinion that EVERYONE in the senior leadership, on both sides, was each some flavor of insane, power-hungry, desperate, drunk with power, paranoid, or otherwise pathologically stubborn.

That may have been a virtual pre-requisite for most forms of senior leadership, during the final decades of the Federation.
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:49 am

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Krenn wrote:

I am increasingly of the opinion that EVERYONE in the senior leadership, on both sides, was each some flavor of insane, power-hungry, desperate, drunk with power, paranoid, or otherwise pathologically stubborn.

That may have been a virtual pre-requisite for most forms of senior leadership, during the final decades of the Federation.


Oh, yeah. They were fleeing from the genocide of their entire species, they'd been fighting a hopeless battle for decades and one thing they knew was that they only had this one, last shot.

The other thing they knew was that everyone and everything they loved was gone.

Why do Merlin and Nimue call their various personas Welsh names? Because Welsh is gone. Not just a dead language, nobody on this planet even knows there was such a thing as Welsh. Or a country called Wales. It's gone.

The command crew hat PTSD to a level we can't even imagine. And everyone on Operation Ark may well have been picked for 'stubborn ', to boot. After all, look at Merlin. :)
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Krenn   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:55 am

Krenn
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Bluesqueak wrote:
Krenn wrote:

I am increasingly of the opinion that EVERYONE in the senior leadership, on both sides, was each some flavor of insane, power-hungry, desperate, drunk with power, paranoid, or otherwise pathologically stubborn.

That may have been a virtual pre-requisite for most forms of senior leadership, during the final decades of the Federation.


Oh, yeah. They were fleeing from the genocide of their entire species, they'd been fighting a hopeless battle for decades and one thing they knew was that they only had this one, last shot.

The other thing they knew was that everyone and everything they loved was gone.

Why do Merlin and Nimue call their various personas Welsh names? Because Welsh is gone. Not just a dead language, nobody on this planet even knows there was such a thing as Welsh. Or a country called Wales. It's gone.

The command crew hat PTSD to a level we can't even imagine. And everyone on Operation Ark may well have been picked for 'stubborn ', to boot. After all, look at Merlin. :)


I also suspect that in order to achieve command-level rank, AT ALL, even 20 years prior to Operation Ark, the only real candidates interested in the promotion and marginally competent to hold it would have been the marginally insane ones.

Everybody else was probably either curling into a mental ball and only dealing with the problem in front of them, or in complete denial about the problem, or desperately working on a private escape plan, or choosing to die heroically, or SOMETHING.

Who would want to compete for a command promotion, when all promotion means is that you're responsible for ordering and supervising people, to make sure they stay in their lanes and die pointless deaths at the precisely scheduled place and time? just to buy the federation one extra month before the end times?

Answer: The people who really like keeping others in lanes, and arranging for deaths to occur in a logical order. A morbid form of extreme OCD is practically required. Narcissists and Meglomaniacs who are still functional members of society encouraged to apply.
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:59 am

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DMcCunney

With Chihiro being a historian....I wonder if that's his issue?
Wanting to write his own history for Humanity?
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:52 am

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Krenn wrote:
DMcCunney wrote:At a con, RFC said Chihiro had been a senior government official and a historian back on Earth. We know he was working to undermine Langhorne and supplant him as Administrator. Kau Yung's nuke provided a leadership gap Chihiro was happy to step into, and he was already Assistant Adminstrator and second in legal command.
I am increasingly of the opinion that EVERYONE in the senior leadership, on both sides, was each some flavor of insane, power-hungry, desperate, drunk with power, paranoid, or otherwise pathologically stubborn.
You can make a good case for that. The least damaged was likely Shan-Wei, given her support for OS's original mission plan. And while I don't think we'll find out, the decision making process back in the Terran Federation that was involved in planning for OA must have been fascinating, especially when it got to the point of who who would be sent along. The Adams and Eves would have been problematic enough, but the command crew was arguably worse. I strongly suspect Chihiro leaned on his senior government official status to get himself included.

(I have speculated a bit about what things were like on old Earth once the Gbaba had englobed the planet and everyone was watching the sky waiting for their death to start raining down. <shudder>)

The big question, given Langhorne's subsequent actions, is how he got the nod to be Administrator. You would think "Can be trusted to carry out the orders they were given and not pee in the soup to suit themselves" would have been a checkbox in the process.
That may have been a virtual pre-requisite for most forms of senior leadership, during the final decades of the Federation.
I think it's more a question of everybody being a bit bugfuck by the time the Gbaba came to call, but same difference.
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by DMcCunney   » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:07 am

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SilverbladeTE wrote:With Chihiro being a historian....I wonder if that's his issue?
Wanting to write his own history for Humanity?
More likely having really poor judgement about the historical models he was trying to apply to Safehold. He seems to have firmly in the camp of "humanity must dive down a rabbit hole, pull the hole in after it, and never come out again!"

He may also have been one of those who felt mankind overreached itself by developing technology and venturing into space, and using only wind, water and muscle power forever is what we should have done to begin with. A variant of "God didn't want us to do what we did, and the Gbaba are His punishment for doing it!" Those folks can likely find things in scripture they think apply.

But given how Langhorne ignored his original orders, and Chihiro was apparently even more radical then Langhorne in that respect, I wonder how the setup on Safehold post the War Against the Fallen differed from what Langhorne intended, since Chihiro's fingerprints would be all over the end product.
______
Dennis
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Re: [Spoiler] Who else knew about Nimue? Title is not a spoi
Post by Krenn   » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:30 am

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DMcCunney wrote:
SilverbladeTE wrote:With Chihiro being a historian....I wonder if that's his issue?
Wanting to write his own history for Humanity?
More likely having really poor judgement about the historical models he was trying to apply to Safehold. He seems to have firmly in the camp of "humanity must dive down a rabbit hole, pull the hole in after it, and never come out again!"

He may also have been one of those who felt mankind overreached itself by developing technology and venturing into space, and using only wind, water and muscle power forever is what we should have done to begin with. A variant of "God didn't want us to do what we did, and the Gbaba are His punishment for doing it!" Those folks can likely find things in scripture they think apply.

But given how Langhorne ignored his original orders, and Chihiro was apparently even more radical then Langhorne in that respect, I wonder how the setup on Safehold post the War Against the Fallen differed from what Langhorne intended, since Chihiro's fingerprints would be all over the end product.
______
Dennis



I'm not entirely convinced that Chihiro's goals were neccessarily the same as Langhorne's at all.

For all I know, Chihiro just wanted the chance to author and enforce a book of worldwide scripture. ANY worldwide scripture. Langhorne's policy of technology supression may just have been a convenient excuse.
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