[SPOILERS] Lost Testament of Schueler

Dilandu wrote:He was an ally, but he wasnt the designated colonial administrator. Lets not forget, Langhorne took control over the whole project by direct decision of Operation Ark chief staff, still in Solar System. He was the legitimate leader, to whom the military were loyal as to the last remaining representative of TF civilian government

I'm sure alteration of a person's memory without their consent (having them blanked wasn't what the colonists agreed to) was probably a serious offense in the Federation. One count was probably a serious offense. Langhorne ordered it done to millions.

He would've lost his legitimacy, legally speaking, the moment he departed from the mission plan and started writing his own script. Are you sure Langhorne was a civilian representative? I distinctly remember Nahrmann making a reference to his "original orders" and how far he strayed from them. And somehow I doubt the authority to summarily execute the population of Alexandria was included in the colony's charter.

ecortez wrote:
I'm sure alteration of a person's memory without their consent (having them blanked wasn't what the colonists agreed to) was probably a serious offense in the Federation. One count was probably a serious offense. Langhorne ordered it done to millions.

He would've lost his legitimacy, legally speaking, the moment he departed from the mission plan and started writing his own script. Are you sure Langhorne was a civilian representative? I distinctly remember Nahrmann making a reference to his "original orders" and how far he strayed from them. And somehow I doubt the authority to summarily execute the population of Alexandria was included in the colony's charter.

No.

The INITIAL PLAN of the operation Ark proposed exactly that. The colonists memories were supposed to be erased (at least partially), so the high technology could be safely suppressed for the centuries of "hiding" (with the exception of carefully hidden control enclaves). Its debatable, how far the initial memory correction was supposed to went, but clearly far enough.

Langhorne, being the designated leader, have the rights to change the plan. He was the one, responsible for the survival of human race, after all. He could not do it, while operating under a rigidly pre-established set of instruction (what if something unexpected would come?) Remember: Dr. Pei never questioned the LEGALITY of Langhorne's actions, only their rationality.

So, Langhorne was within his rights. He may stretch thrm quite a lot, actually, but he have an authority from the operation Ark planners (and so from the Federation Prezident) to do so.

ecortez wrote:
He would've lost his legitimacy, legally speaking, the moment he departed from the mission plan and started writing his own script. Are you sure Langhorne was a civilian representative? I distinctly remember Nahrmann making a reference to his "original orders" and how far he strayed from them. And somehow I doubt the authority to summarily execute the population of Alexandria was included in the colony's charter.

Only if the plan was some sort of a rigid set of instruction "after A you would do B, after B you would do C or D, depending on the parameter E".

For the Ark project, this literaly make no sence. The rigid set of rules simply could not correspond to all aspects of the highly-nonstandard situation of establishing the low-tech colony in isolation. What if something unexpected happens, and the instruction would not correspond to reality? The planners on Earth could not gave a rigid set of instruction, because it would took out the thing, that humanity desperatedly needed to survive: flexibility.

And again, the only actual deviation from original plan tgat Langhorne ever conducted was an attempt to make low-tech conditions permanent. His pseudo-religious structure was actually pretty effective and elegant solution for maintaining the low-tech stasis during hiding period of colony. Basically, if he did not write off the idea of eventual technology return, there probably would be no opposition even from Shain-Wei; after all, religious systems ARE effective in maintaining stability!

Dilandu wrote:The INITIAL PLAN of the operation Ark proposed exactly that. The colonists memories were supposed to be erased (at least partially), so the high technology could be safely suppressed for the centuries of "hiding" (with the exception of carefully hidden control enclaves). Its debatable, how far the initial memory correction was supposed to went, but clearly far enough.

Langhorne, being the designated leader, have the rights to change the plan. He was the one, responsible for the survival of human race, after all. He could not do it, while operating under a rigidly pre-established set of instruction (what if something unexpected would come?) Remember: Dr. Pei never questioned the LEGALITY of Langhorne's actions, only their rationality.

So, Langhorne was within his rights. He may stretch thrm quite a lot, actually, but he have an authority from the operation Ark planners (and so from the Federation Prezident) to do so.

The original plan was to alter the settlers' memories to edit out advanced technology. For example, as a kid growing up in the Federation you might've taken your future wife (who is with you on the ship) to your high school prom in a flying limo. You'd still remember the event, but maybe as a harvest festival in your village that you either walked to or rode with her in a horse drawn carriage. That sort of thing. I recall something Merlin was saying about a contract the colonists signed and how what Langhorne and Bédard did was a violation of that contract.

Eric Langhorne was a colonial administrator, not an autocrat with absolute power. I doubt he would've been given the ability to scrap the essence of the plan - to eventually emerge from the self imposed medieval period - although as you say, he likely would've had the discretion to adjust the time frame if he believed it was necessary. But brainwashing colonists and making himself a semi-divine figure in a new religion? I can't imagine that not being grounds for removal. And genocide would be grounds to arrest him and convene a war crimes tribunal.

I got the impression that legally he had overstepped his bounds quite a bit. Shan-Wei was simply in a position where, with all his superiors dead back on Earth, Langhorne had seized power, refusing to respect whatever system of checks and balances exist to limit that power, so she couldn't remove him via the established process. A protracted war using advanced tech (among other things) would probably mean discovery by the Gbaba. So they decided hey, we may not be able to unseat Langhorne but he can't really make us comply with his revised plan either. They weren't expecting him to take things so far.

Langehorn changed the charter in a manner allowed by that charter. Once changed to allow him the authority he needed to act, he used his new powers to what he did.

Langehorn did expand the governing board with his supporters to overcome the pro Shan-Wei votes. However, that was allowed.

ecortez wrote:Eric Langhorne was a colonial administrator, not an autocrat with absolute power. I doubt he would've been given the ability to scrap the essence of the plan - to eventually emerge from the self imposed medieval period - although as you say, he likely would've had the discretion to adjust the time frame if he believed it was necessary. But brainwashing colonists and making himself a semi-divine figure in a new religion? I can't imagine that not being grounds for removal. And genocide would be grounds to arrest him and convene a war crimes tribunal.

1. He was not JUST the colonial administrator. He was colonial administrator tasked with humanity ultimate survival. For the task that great, he must have pretty broad authority.

2. Brainwashing the colonists & making himself God was EFFECTIVE, even in the original scheme. Again, the goal was to prevent the accidental reemergence of high technology during the hiding period. What could be the best way to do that than Langhorne's model? You must admit, that his system worked well for almost a millennium - which basically proof that it would be perfectly workable for shorter timescale too.

3. Again, the rebellous military did not think that it was Langhorne who ordered said action.

Dilandu wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:I thought that they [military Fallen] were described as loyal to Pei-Shan wei specifically - so not exactly Langhorne loyalists - maybe just going along grudgingly with the plan?

They were described as loyal to commodore Pei Kay-Yung, not doctor Pei Shan-Wei. And, they were loyal to Langhorne at least in therms of civilian control over military. Lets not forget, Langhorne was the rightful head of colonial administration. All military forces were subordinated to him. And the fact, that commodore didn't even consider starting the military coup, indicated that at least the majority of military were loyal to Langhorne.

It was only after both Rakurai strike against Alexandria, and nuclear attack, in which Langhorne and most of his staff perished, the military became dissatisfied with Chichiro subsequent actions, and starts to plan a military coup.

Yup you are right I mixed SW & KP up in my reply - but I indeed was thinking of the commadore. I suppose I was trying to say that they were personally loyal to KP and probably fairly a-political - at least until Armageddon Reef.

What Langhorne and Bedard did was criminal. They had no authority to change he mission parameters, based on everything we have seen. I'm not sure why proper checks and balances weren't in place, even given the tremendous stress the Federation was facing, but it was possible that they wanted to balance the differing opinions. The plan, as far as we know was for Operation Ark to plan the colonist and suppress their memories for a few centuries to allow the Gbaba to search and leave the area, at which time the 2 or 3 colonist ships would provided a massive technological infusion to get Humanity back on track and eventually fight the Gbaba.


Langhorne and his cronies not only subverted the authorized mission, but uplifted themselves to deities, because eventhough Chihiro might have orchested a betrayal, the information as we know it was that Langhorne and many other were onboard with the gist of the plan to supress tehnology forever and install themselves as Diety. Did Schuler get cold feet, maybe. His message in the hologram seemed to be from a man with regrets.

ecortez wrote:

Dilandu wrote:He was an ally, but he wasnt the designated colonial administrator. Lets not forget, Langhorne took control over the whole project by direct decision of Operation Ark chief staff, still in Solar System. He was the legitimate leader, to whom the military were loyal as to the last remaining representative of TF civilian government

I'm sure alteration of a person's memory without their consent (having them blanked wasn't what the colonists agreed to) was probably a serious offense in the Federation. One count was probably a serious offense. Langhorne ordered it done to millions.

He would've lost his legitimacy, legally speaking, the moment he departed from the mission plan and started writing his own script. Are you sure Langhorne was a civilian representative? I distinctly remember Nahrmann making a reference to his "original orders" and how far he strayed from them. And somehow I doubt the authority to summarily execute the population of Alexandria was included in the colony's charter.

people, there's text evidence in Book 1 which covers this.

Langhorne was head of a COUNCIL, and legally needed supermajority approval to pull of the 'extra' mind alterations. He implemented the mind changes pre-emptively, knowing that he was unlikely to ever get legitimate approval for that action, and then when he lost the vote, he purged all the dissenters.

Very much an administrative coup in furtherance of illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical actions.

“With all due respect, Administrator Langhorne,” Shan-wei said, “I don’t believe your policy does represent a true consensus. I was a member of the Council myself, if you will recall, as were six of my colleagues on the present Alexandria Board. All of us opposed your policy when you first proposed it.”

Which, Kau-yung thought, split the vote eight-to-seven, two short of the supermajority you needed under the colonial charter to modify the templates, didn’t it, Eric? Of course, you’d already gone ahead and done it, which left you with a teeny-tiny problem. That’s why Shan-wei and the others found themselves arbitrarily removed from the Council, wasn’t it?

“That’s true,” Langhorne said coldly. “However, none of you are current members of the Council, and the present Council membership unanimously endorses this policy. And whatever other ancient history you might wish to bring up, I repeat that the policy will stand, and it will be enforced throughout the entire colony. Which includes your so-called Alexandria Enclave.”

SPOILER?
<SNIP>

The only question is what is the REAL origin of the Testament. I can't imagine the secret being kept from the READER for very long given how much Weber likes to go into the inner workings of the Inner Circle.

IOW, if the Testament is actually something fabricated by the Inner Circle (even if everything in it is actually from the Stone), we should find that out basically as soon as we have the first scene with them in it. And if the Testament WASN'T created by the Inner Circle, we should find that out in the same scene.[/quote]

Given the name "Operation Androcles", given that it was Narhman's operation and that Cayleb authorized it, given that he did so exactly one scene earlier, and given the fact that Androcles was Schueler's first name... given all that, is there ANY realistic chance this isn't a semi-fraud perpetrated by the Inner Circle? Mind you it's probably only a semi-fraud. I (strongly) suspect -- no proof yet of course -- that every word in the book will actually turn out to be true, at least by Obi-Wan Kenobi standards. But Schueler still didn't actually appear to his followers as 'he' claimed. He's been dead for several hundred years now, it's a bit hard for a corpse to talk.

<SNIP>

Well... this went right by me on the first reading... of course, I finished just prior to midnight last night but I kept shaking my head... how did the book get in the building which was not even constructed when the grave was made...

And even if his followers put it there, how did the rest happen on schedule...

Somewhere in a cave... a short prince is laughing?