[TFT, so spoiler-ish] Delferahk, where peace won't arrive

Was wondering through TFT about Charis and poor Delferahk.

Charis is still nominally at war with Desnair and Delferahk. It's not quite one of those situations where a war continues on paper because (e.g.) the state of war was forgotten, or one state wasn't in a condition to so much as sign a treaty by a legitimate representative. No, this is a war that's continuing on paper because at least one side in it doesn't care to end it on terms the other would take.

That's easy enough to get with Desnair: they're too ticked off and snooty about it, and Charis has no problem retaining the right to shoot up their harbors and shipping whenever Desnair gives them a reason to.

But in Delferahk's case, it's not clear why on Langhorne's green Safehold they won't be thrilled to end the war and resume any measly trade they may get, or why Charis wouldn't be content to offer it. Charis certainly doesn't need to grant them peace, but Delferahk doesn't represent any kind of annoyance that demands a continued license to blow up their stuff.

Peace there would allow Charis a bit easier time perhaps sneaking things across the land borders of South Harchong or Desnair, or picking up serfs and slaves fleeing either of those countries. It would isolate those two at least a touch more - yeah yeah, not much, but every little bit counts.

(I also note that poor little Sodar got NO mention in TFT. They may actually BE a case of a state just forgotten among treaties; I doubt they were allowed not to sign up for the Jihad, but I can readily believe they didn't get a chair at the treaty negotiations.)

Actually, the situation is not exactly like that. The Deshnari is a one of the Safehold greatest nations. They may be obnoxious and backward, but they have size, population, economical wealth and (now) industry to be taken seriously even by Charis. They could afford to wait for the favorable moment - for example, when Charis would be preoccupied by something else, and would be willing to concede for a Deshnari-favorable peace treaty just for sake of having some peace treaty.

Where does it say that Delferahk and Desnair are still at war? Desnair imports automotives, rails and tons of industrial machinery, directly from Charis, with even some advisors and technicians.
Desnair does not seem to like the current state of affair, similarly to Harchong, but right now they try a cold war rather than a hot one.

Whitecold wrote:Where does it say that Delferahk and Desnair are still at war? Desnair imports automotives, rails and tons of industrial machinery, directly from Charis, with even some advisors and technicians.

Chapter X, TFT for the leftover state of war. It's early in the book's timespan, but there's no mention of that changing later.

Desnair's importation from Charis is noted as being accomplished through middlemen at points, primarily Silkian if memory serves. The biggest source of technical assistance from Charis was from Showail who snuck himself and technical materials out. (That was part of the Nahrman Plan, with Showail being allowed to think he put one over on Howsmyn.)

I imagine the Silkiahan, Dohlaran, even Siddarmarkan merchants who are being the middlemen just LOVE charging the Desnairians through the nose for it, and the Desnairians grit their teeth and keep throwing money at their problems.

Desnair does not seem to like the current state of affair, similarly to Harchong, but right now they try a cold war rather than a hot one.

Right. I have to picture that as more a matter of Desnairian pride than strategy in foreign terms, but then, appealing to Desnairian pride is a central part of their domestic political strategy anyway.

It's obvious what the Charisians are doing in Desnair. We've already seen at least one of the new captains of industry with the potential to be elevated to the nobility. Their factories and the workers who man them are being treated as assets - even if the snobby Desnairian leadership still looks down on them. Change is happening internally. They're industrializing and their social order is beginning to loosen. Which is of course, the whole point.

Delferahk is all but absent from this book. I don't know what the issue is. I'm sure (awkward though it might be initially) that Irys, Daivyn, and Hektor could find their way to extending the hand of forgiveness to King Zhames. For the sake of the master plan if nothing else. He was just one of many leaders in no position to tell Clyntahn to go screw himself. Certainly his Kingdom has been punished more than enough for what happened in Ferayd.

We didn't hear anything about Raven's Land either, whether they're still on the fringes or have thrown in with the Charisians and their march toward industry. Unless I missed something. As for Sodar ... I don't think they've merited more than a handful of mentions throughout the series. There's a full plate of stuff going on in other places right now. I assume we'll get more details on the forgotten realms that didn't really figure into TFT as the story progresses and they come into play.

ecortez wrote:Delferahk is all but absent from this book. I don't know what the issue is. I'm sure (awkward though it might be initially) that Irys, Daivyn, and Hektor could find their way to extending the hand of forgiveness to King Zhames. For the sake of the master plan if nothing else. He was just one of many leaders in no position to tell Clyntahn to go screw himself. Certainly his Kingdom has been punished more than enough for what happened in Ferayd.

That's my take too. I also think that Delferahk, marginal as it is, is too big simply to ignore. Ultimately, the Nahrmann Plan is to give a Chihiro-like returning Archangel or similar entity not enough humanity to start over with if it needs to kill off all the innovation-tainted Safeholders. It's less spreading innovation around to many as it is spreading it around to almost everyone. A sufficiently monstrous Chihirite Entity would be able to unleash enough rakurai to start over with nothing left but Delferahk and Sodar, if innovation spreads even to such odd little spots as Hammer Island, Trellheim or the Raven Lands. Delferahk by itself would be a sufficient vestigial population for them. It makes it a place the Nahrmann Plan cannot afford simply to forget, and Delferahk does not have the money or the spite to innovate on the Desnairian or imperial Harchongian models, but it's a fine candidate for one of the friendlier tacks taken with Silkiah, Dohlar, or the United Provinces.

We didn't hear anything about Raven's Land either, whether they're still on the fringes or have thrown in with the Charisians and their march toward industry. Unless I missed something. As for Sodar ... I don't think they've merited more than a handful of mentions throughout the series. There's a full plate of stuff going on in other places right now. I assume we'll get more details on the forgotten realms that didn't really figure into TFT as the story progresses and they come into play.

Sodar is noted as being unable to attract investment, so Nahrmanning it up isn't yet doable. But it's small enough that that may not be a serious problem. More innovations may well mean that some resource available in Sodar will emerge as an investment excuse - oil reserves, for instance, or mining that wasn't practical before high explosives, steam engines and railroads.

Raven's Land and Hammer Island - heck, maybe Trellheim too - may be getting penumbral effects from Chisholm's development in particular. There's not much political sentiment that is likely to deter that at least, unlike Delferahk's leftover state of war or Desnair's ongoing state of bitterness. They're all places about which it's not a surprise we hear nothing.

JeffEngel wrote:Raven's Land and Hammer Island - heck, maybe Trellheim too - may be getting penumbral effects from Chisholm's development in particular. There's not much political sentiment that is likely to deter that at least, unlike Delferahk's leftover state of war or Desnair's ongoing state of bitterness. They're all places about which it's not a surprise we hear nothing.

Maybe all you'd have to do is recruit some talented kids for the Royal College in Tellesberg. Have them learn all the new techniques, introduce them to potential investment partners like Ehdwyrd Howsmyn, then send them home with lots of ideas and keep in contact. Places like those, the people are very independent minded and you want any new ventures to be mostly their own. Resistance will be much greater if they perceive industrialization in terms of greedy foreigners coming in to milk their resources - and of course wind up with most of the profits.

Delferahk has the same problems with Charisian social changes as Desnair. They want nothing to do with it. So when Desnair industrializes enough t modernize their army, Delferahk will be their short victorious war. I suspect South Harchong may consolidate Sodar to increase their labor pool if nothing else. Labor will be important to Desnair's and South Harchong's inefficient industries. They can't compete with Charisian efficiency, so they will employ a larger number of workers.

Siddermark is big enough to hold its own against Dohlar and the Border Kingdoms. Silkiah will suck up the ICA defending on two fronts; Siddermark to the north and Desnair to the south. South Harchong will be focused on the UP and East Harchong. Desnair, South Harhcong and Siddermark will have to be able to build their own navies to a sufficient degree that the ICN will be spread very thin. I suspect that Cayleb and Sharley will let those nations build sufficiently large navies to project regional power on the mainland, but not to directly threaten their Empire.

Once those navies are built, then comes the truly nasty battlewagons held in Duke Delthak's reserve. Once the mainland offsets the airships, then comes the diesel airplanes. When the mainland arms truly modern infantry, then comes the steam tanks, crewed machine guns and automatic rifles.

This sort of evolution suggests Sodar and Delferahk are left as low hanging fruit on purpose. Not only are they too difficult to conquer and control directly, they are needed as inducements for the Howard nations to practice on. Had Delferahk sought assistance to industrialize, Charis would have given it. Because they didn't, they become target practice.

Ultimately though, Charis is trying to see more democratic governments replace the tyrannies and rigid aristocracies. Something like the US tried to do post-Cold War. A peaceful world order through industrialization, prosperity, and greater freedom. Maintain reserve capacity to stay ahead of potential adversaries as long as necessary, hoping at some point it won't be anymore.

All while building a technologically sophisticated Safehold, so that any awakening Archangels will be met by a mob of reporters firing questions at them rather than throngs of worshippers.

ecortez wrote:Ultimately though, Charis is trying to see more democratic governments replace the tyrannies and rigid aristocracies. Something like the US tried to do post-Cold War. A peaceful world order through industrialization, prosperity, and greater freedom. Maintain reserve capacity to stay ahead of potential adversaries as long as necessary, hoping at some point it won't be anymore.

Not to mention building a technologically sophisticated Safehold, so that any awakening Archangels will be met by a mob of reporters firing questions at them rather than throngs of worshippers.

Yeah it is. However, unless Delferahk accepts help, there is nothing Charis can do to protect them against Desnair invading with a much more modern army. In the end, having Delferahk as part of an industrialized Desnair is better than having it remain hopelessly backward.

Liberalizing both nations can happen after they industrialize.