TFT *SPOILERS* thoughts, discussions, and future speculation

Isilith wrote:Yeah, darn those people who didn't like being occupied and made subservient in their own country. Not only that, you are forgetting many years of Russian oppression of the Polish people. Something I guarantee you that the Polish people didn't forget.

I'm not forgetting anything. Including numerous Polish invasion on Moscow Tsardom territory, the long conflict over Ukraine, the blatant attempt of conquest of all Russia in 1600s (it was Poland who created and supported impostor pretenders on vacant Moscow throne)...

Basically, it was long-lasted bad blood between two nations, where there were no obvious "right" or "wrong". Like between France and Britain, or France and Habsburg Dynasty.

And if you forgot, I must also remind you, that it was NOT just Russia who dismantled Poland, but the alliance of Russia, Prussia and Austrian Empire. Simply speaking, Poland managed (several times!) to break the relation with all Poland neighbors, so no one of them was actually interested in Poland well-being.

Not to mention such "small" moments as Poland death camps for the Russian prisoners of war in 1920s, that Poland fight almost every single of her neighborhoods in 1920s, biting their territories, the fact that Poland eagerly sided with Hitler against Czech in 1938, and basically threatened to declare war against USSR, when Stalin attempted to support Prague...

Basically Poland in XX century was the victim of idiocy of her own government, which dreamed about great Poland empire and colonial conquests.

Isilith wrote:
You sound like Americans who can't understand why most Native Americans weren't happy to be "assimilated".

One important difference. Native Americans did not attempt to invade Europe, did not plunder & burn London and Liverpool, did not try to put false King Charles on British throne during English Civil War, and did not oppress colonists on religious basics.

And they most definitely did not side up with Hitler.

There is very good reason authors, such as GRR Martin and our esteemed host, have found an endlessly diverse font of inspiration in the schemes, massacres, feuds, idiocies, lunacies, rebellions, invasions, piracy, peccadillos, perversities, and so on and so forth, of the folk from Ireland to Russia!

Arguing with Poles and Russians about each other's respective crimes, wrong doings etc is like doing the same with Glasgow Rangers vs Celtic fans...some kind of diabolical Perpetual Motion Machine of Mass Insanity, that is!

If anyone ever wants proof that we Humans are dumb and nuts the Polish Veto proves it!
As does putting Ibrox and Celtic Park in the same city.....or universe...sigh

SilverbladeTE wrote:There is very good reason authors, such as GRR Martin and our esteemed host, have found an endlessly diverse font of inspiration in the schemes, massacres, feuds, idiocies, lunacies, rebellions, invasions, piracy, peccadillos, perversities, and so on and so forth, of the folk from Ireland to Russia!

Yeah, it's European history)

Dilandu wrote:

Isilith wrote:Yeah, darn those people who didn't like being occupied and made subservient in their own country. Not only that, you are forgetting many years of Russian oppression of the Polish people. Something I guarantee you that the Polish people didn't forget.

I'm not forgetting anything. Including numerous Polish invasion on Moscow Tsardom territory, the long conflict over Ukraine, the blatant attempt of conquest of all Russia in 1600s (it was Poland who created and supported impostor pretenders on vacant Moscow throne)...

Basically, it was long-lasted bad blood between two nations, where there were no obvious "right" or "wrong". Like between France and Britain, or France and Habsburg Dynasty.

And if you forgot, I must also remind you, that it was NOT just Russia who dismantled Poland, but the alliance of Russia, Prussia and Austrian Empire. Simply speaking, Poland managed (several times!) to break the relation with all Poland neighbors, so no one of them was actually interested in Poland well-being.

Not to mention such "small" moments as Poland death camps for the Russian prisoners of war in 1920s, that Poland fight almost every single of her neighborhoods in 1920s, biting their territories, the fact that Poland eagerly sided with Hitler against Czech in 1938, and basically threatened to declare war against USSR, when Stalin attempted to support Prague...

Basically Poland in XX century was the victim of idiocy of her own government, which dreamed about great Poland empire and colonial conquests.

Thanks for this, Dilandu. I do not doubt your sincerity in the slightest or the deep seated beliefs that those antecedents are true justifications for most Poles and Russians. Your exposition does remind me that what happened in Siddermark has happened to humanity in one way or another for millennia. Ending it is the challenge. We are seeing how that might happen in the United Provinces and East Harchong.

I've been reading the book slowly since Tuesday and enjoyed it, but it is very episodic. What a cliff hanger ending, though!! Talk about whetting the appetite for the next book. Not going to go there much in this post, lots of possibilities and implications. First impression, though is that there are more and more interesting possibilities if this is a genuine intervention by a third party rather than a Charisian Project Androcles.

I find myself in a lot of sympathy with Lyonheart and JOAT42 about the Siddermarkian situation. Clearly RFC wanted to set up the situation at the end of the book with Siddermark in ruins, pretty much anti-Charisian and possibly on it's way to an alliance of some sort with Desnair and S Harchong. However I found the approach taken to do it pretty heavy-handed on the author's part and very out of character on the part of the Inner Circle. They make a whole collection of lame, unlikely and reactive decisions regarding their approach to Siddermark and keep doing so as things go from bad to worse.

First they should have had a better health plan for Greygohr who was a crucial ally, c'mon they use nanites to fix up fertility problems on 3 occasions, including one without permission, just to make people feel better about themselves, but allow the Protector to die of a clearly deteriorating health situation not long after having similarly lost Rhobair?

Then there is their whole approach to corruption in Siddarmark, they see it is there, they have the means to get the evidence and they repeatedly do nothing about it, apparently from a squeamish delicacy about treading on national pride. Well look how that worked out. And how believable is it that Nahrman, Nynian and the seijins couldn't work out how to do something about it? Yes, Cayleb you do use the Seijin Tactics to dump the second set of books on the regulators desk, but a few years before you dismiss it. There is a well established press in Siddermark what is wrong with helping along some investigative journalism to out these corrupt politicians. The Protector needed to be taken aside and spoken to very frankly. What head of state imagines that their allies don't spy on them? Really? Agreeing to limit the Ahrmahk Plan to the railroad needlessly contributed to the unemployment and unrest by limiting its benefits to the heavy engineering sector.

Why didn't Seijin Mab indulge in some nocturnal counselling sessions with the chief miscreants, after which they discovered they had donated a good part of their ill-gotten gains to the local orphanage? Where is the positive PR campaign on the part of the Empire of Charis? Where is anything actually positive and sensible rather than just wringing their hands? It's not like the Inner Circle at all. IMHO

Thank you for reading this far. You've realised I didn't like this part of the plot.

lyonheart wrote:Why RFC has turned Siddarmark into such a disaster is curious

FriarBob wrote:
I don't think he "turned" it into anything. I think it was always a disaster waiting to happen. There were a few hints of this before but we simply failed to see them. The 'Charisian Quarter' for example, or the 'honest workers' put out of business by Charis, etc.... The hints were always there, we just missed them. And of course the scope of the coming disaster was far greater than any expected.

But the epilogue of ATST had a few hints of just how broken it would get with Stohnar despairing of how to clean up the mess. It was there. We just missed it and/or the scope of it.

Yeah, the more I think about Siddermark, the more I agree with you, FB.

Comparing it to how North Harchong recovered from an arguable worse upheaval, we see how StarRising et al chose to directly address what needed to be done despite the disincentives. Siddermark chose to delay addressing their core problems in deference to the populations sensitivities. I think that deference simply encouraged the population's prejudice. The same is true for the corruption. Because the leadership of Siddermark shared many of those prejudices.

Sending Mab in to straighten out the wrong doers would have convinced both the wrong doers and the leadership that Charis was indeed pulling their strings. The resentment that would have caused would have estranged Siddermark more thoroughly than the list of low probability events actually did. There are still Charis supporters after all. Had Charis actually meddled, those would have been far fewer.

Considering "ingratitude" and the way Fate can throw perverse U-turns and problems....
Charles De Gaulle and France

After WW2 it's a bit like Siddirmark
De Gaulle was a complete ingracious ass to put it mildly and not nearly the genius he thought he was, sigh
If someone else had taken his place...things may have turned out better

The Resistance was a complete.mess of groups who often fought each other and many horrible criminals evaded.justice after the war because of political garbage
Lots of gangsterism and revenge killlings

Not hard to understand WHY, if you study the history
Just Human Nature and chaos...alas

One bit.of history of after WW2 period that has been really overlooked is the extent criminality got.to, secret bases/villages sprang up where weapons, drugs, stolen art, bullion, prostitutes and sex slaves (grabbed from mass of refugees) were sold
Huge fortunes were made
This is a likely issue in Siddirmark, I think

PeterZ wrote:Thanks for this, Dilandu. I do not doubt your sincerity in the slightest or the deep seated beliefs that those antecedents are true justifications for most Poles and Russians. Your exposition does remind me that what happened in Siddermark has happened to humanity in one way or another for millennia. Ending it is the challenge. We are seeing how that might happen in the United Provinces and East Harchong.

Unfortunately yes. The history of almost every nation is filled with long-lasting feuds with neighbors, in which it is simply impossible to actually say who is right and who is wrong. I see no reason why the same process should not be repeated on Safehold (especially considering that it WAS repeated - for example, Deshnari-Siddarmark conflict is a clear example. Both sides have a lot of claims against each other, and it's impossible to actually determine who is right, and who is wrong).

SilverbladeTE wrote:Considering "ingratitude" and the way Fate can throw perverse U-turns and problems....
Charles De Gaulle and France

After WW2 it's a bit like Siddirmark
De Gaulle was a complete ingracious ass to put it mildly and not nearly the genius he thought he was, sigh
If someone else had taken his place...things may have turned out better

The Resistance was a complete.mess of groups who often fought each other and many horrible criminals evaded.justice after the war because of political garbage
Lots of gangsterism and revenge killlings

Not hard to understand WHY, if you study the history
Just Human Nature and chaos...alas

One bit.of history of after WW2 period that has been really overlooked is the extent criminality got.to, secret bases/villages sprang up where weapons, drugs, stolen art, bullion, prostitutes and sex slaves (grabbed from mass of refugees) were sold
Huge fortunes were made
This is a likely issue in Siddirmark, I think

Not to mention how USA after WW2 directly linked economical help to France and Italy with expulsion of communists from the government... despite the fact, that French Popular Front have the votes of more than a quarter of population. Yeah, "the marvels of American democracy".