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[SPOILERS] Lost Testament of Schueler

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by Julia Minor   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:51 am

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FriarBob wrote: There is literally NO WAY a recording made 800-odd years ago could possibly know A) the evil deeds would happen (predict it, yes, *know* it, no), and that B) the deeds would have been stopped and rejected.


There's also no way a 800+ year old recording would have been made in current Safehold dialect. The message Schueler left in the Key was spoken in Federation-standard English, and at least one IC member is noted to have needed to listen closely to follow along thanks to linguistic drift. Everyone in that church could understand "Schueler" easily, therefore he wasn't speaking TF English but Safehold English. (Or that one section of the Temple Lands somehow preserved Standard English when the rest of the planet experienced linguistic drift. Theoretically possible, but I wouldn't put any money on it.)
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:02 pm

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Julia Minor wrote:
FriarBob wrote: There is literally NO WAY a recording made 800-odd years ago could possibly know A) the evil deeds would happen (predict it, yes, *know* it, no), and that B) the deeds would have been stopped and rejected.


There's also no way a 800+ year old recording would have been made in current Safehold dialect. The message Schueler left in the Key was spoken in Federation-standard English, and at least one IC member is noted to have needed to listen closely to follow along thanks to linguistic drift. Everyone in that church could understand "Schueler" easily, therefore he wasn't speaking TF English but Safehold English. (Or that one section of the Temple Lands somehow preserved Standard English when the rest of the planet experienced linguistic drift. Theoretically possible, but I wouldn't put any money on it.)

All that argues for is AI editing of the recording's audio files to correct for language drift. An AI could have sampled the current language and altered the audio accordingly. Heck, even editing the mouth movements to reflect the current dialect of English wouldn't be hard. A simple AI could managed the entire effort.
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:20 pm

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Julia Minor wrote: (Or that one section of the Temple Lands somehow preserved Standard English when the rest of the planet experienced linguistic drift. Theoretically possible, but I wouldn't put any money on it.)


Recall the difference between Russian and Church Slavonic. It's actually entirely possible, that Temple Land might be close to the original dialect.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by isaac_newton   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:00 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Julia Minor wrote: SNIP
There's also no way a 800+ year old recording would have been made in current Safehold dialect. The message Schueler left in the Key was spoken in Federation-standard English, and at least one IC member is noted to have needed to listen closely to follow along thanks to linguistic drift. Everyone in that church could understand "Schueler" easily, therefore he wasn't speaking TF English but Safehold English. (Or that one section of the Temple Lands somehow preserved Standard English when the rest of the planet experienced linguistic drift. Theoretically possible, but I wouldn't put any money on it.)

All that argues for is AI editing of the recording's audio files to correct for language drift. An AI could have sampled the current language and altered the audio accordingly. Heck, even editing the mouth movements to reflect the current dialect of English wouldn't be hard. A simple AI could managed the entire effort.


Hmmm - both are good & interesting points - things I just had not spotted or thought about!

BTW I've always felt that the written Safeholdian, at least, would not drift much, because of the constant movement of the top churchmen & nobles & pilgrims to/from Zion all over the planet and the various schools all taught by COGA trained staff, AND wanting to keep in line with the Scriptures and Insights etc.

Now if the continents had been isolated for centuries I could see drift occuring.
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:02 pm

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PeterZ wrote:FriarBob,

I see why you got there, but totally disagree. THIS is the Return Paityr's recording speaks of: the Schueler visitation. Had this been a Nahrmahn special, the visitation would have commented on Clyntahn's excesses as the reason for his visit. Clyntahn was already viewed as causing a huge wrong turn for Safehold. Also, the IC wouldn't have lied when they knew the Archangels were coming back according to Schueler. Falsifying another return is simply begging to have their forgery revealed.

Project Androcles refers to Adroclese and the Lion. The Lion being the CoGA. Charis pulled the thorn of Clyntahn from the CoGA's paw. They gave the CoGA back its moral compass in Grand Vicar Robhair.

How will the IC benefit from that good will? I believe that by materially rewarding the CoGA the more the CoGA practices it's moral authority as Safehold's conscience, Charis creates a precedence for future Grand Vicars. Charis will put their resources at the CoGA's disposal just as they did in North Harchong so long as the CoGA remains ONLY Safehold's conscience.

Of course, Project Androcles could refer to something completely different from a faked visitation or any reference Androcles and the Lion.


PeterZ,
I’m afraid that I must disagree with you and agree with FriarBob.

On page 724 “Schueler” states, “You have survived a dark time. Terrible evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the perversions they were. “

It is highly unlikely that Schueler could have known 800 years before that such would have just happened. Therefore the most logical conclusion based on the facts as we currently know them is that it was constructed and set in motion by our favorite sneaky Ghost in the Machine.

Of course there is ALWAYS room for it to be something totally different but until we receive more data...
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:42 pm

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PeterZ wrote:FriarBob,

I see why you got there, but totally disagree. THIS is the Return Paityr's recording speaks of: the Schueler visitation. Had this been a Nahrmahn special, the visitation would have commented on Clyntahn's excesses as the reason for his visit. Clyntahn was already viewed as causing a huge wrong turn for Safehold. Also, the IC wouldn't have lied when they knew the Archangels were coming back according to Schueler. Falsifying another return is simply begging to have their forgery revealed.

Project Androcles refers to Adroclese and the Lion. The Lion being the CoGA. Charis pulled the thorn of Clyntahn from the CoGA's paw. They gave the CoGA back its moral compass in Grand Vicar Robhair.

How will the IC benefit from that good will? I believe that by materially rewarding the CoGA the more the CoGA practices it's moral authority as Safehold's conscience, Charis creates a precedence for future Grand Vicars. Charis will put their resources at the CoGA's disposal just as they did in North Harchong so long as the CoGA remains ONLY Safehold's conscience.

Of course, Project Androcles could refer to something completely different from a faked visitation or any reference Androcles and the Lion.
PlaysWithBees wrote:
PeterZ,
I’m afraid that I must disagree with you and agree with FriarBob.

On page 724 “Schueler” states, “You have survived a dark time. Terrible evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the perversions they were. “

It is highly unlikely that Schueler could have known 800 years before that such would have just happened. Therefore the most logical conclusion based on the facts as we currently know them is that it was constructed and set in motion by our favorite sneaky Ghost in the Machine.

Of course there is ALWAYS room for it to be something totally different but until we receive more data...

Was he talking about Clyntahn? Was he talking about the War Against the Fallen orchestrated by Chihiro? If the Clyntahn jihad triggered the Visitation, why wait so long to tell a truth kept for nearly a millennia? What kept him from telling the truth? Why was Clyntahn central to his being abble to tell it now? If this was a nahrmahn plot, why be as vague as he was? If this was a real recording, the reasons for the wait will be in the book.


It makes more sense to me that Scheuler was the man of integrity his recording to the Wylsyns and Khody's diary describe. That that man left his final shot to defeat the power hungry character Chihiro appears to have been. A final shot to free the charges he was oathbound to protect from the shackles of Chihiro's lie and other manipulations.

It makes more sense that Porject Androcles was a choreographed release of the diary of St. Khody, his tomb and the history of the SSK. Perhaps even the eventual reveal of the documents of St. Zherneau. That the IC would launch another lie is just a bridge too far given their stated positions in text.
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:00 pm

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Is the annual Day of Atonement a product of the CoGA from the War Against the Fallen?

If not, then it argues for the visitation as being a product of Nahrmahn's schemes.
Also, the last two sentences Schueler spoke makes his entire appearance a contradiction to anything Nahrmahn would fabricate. Asserting the veracity of a statement in a completely fabricated spectacle is pretty much crapping on the ethics Merlin has espoused since Nimue awoke.
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by evilauthor   » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm

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PlaysWithBees wrote:On page 724 “Schueler” states, “You have survived a dark time. Terrible evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the perversions they were. “

It is highly unlikely that Schueler could have known 800 years before that such would have just happened. Therefore the most logical conclusion based on the facts as we currently know them is that it was constructed and set in motion by our favorite sneaky Ghost in the Machine.

Of course there is ALWAYS room for it to be something totally different but until we receive more data...


Or, the "dark time" referred to is the centuries spent living under "Chihiro's lies".

As for terrible deeds being done in Schueler's name? Not that hard to predict with even a quick perusal of the official Book of Schueler. Even "proper" use of the Punishment against the actual intended targets would be easy to classify as "terrible deeds".
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:58 am

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PlaysWithBees wrote:
PeterZ,
I’m afraid that I must disagree with you and agree with FriarBob.

On page 724 “Schueler” states, “You have survived a dark time. Terrible evil deeds were done in my name. Deeds any godly person must renounce as the perversions they were. “

It is highly unlikely that Schueler could have known 800 years before that such would have just happened. Therefore the most logical conclusion based on the facts as we currently know them is that it was constructed and set in motion by our favorite sneaky Ghost in the Machine.

Of course there is ALWAYS room for it to be something totally different but until we receive more data...


If the Inquisition was keeping track of the number of times it inflicted the Punishment on Temple equipment, then there would be an enormous spike in the number of victims which lasted for several years and then dropped to nothing. That spike would indicate a "Dark Time."
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Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
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Re: Lost Testament of Schueler
Post by Jeslis   » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:11 am

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:If the Inquisition was keeping track of the number of times it inflicted the Punishment on Temple equipment, then there would be an enormous spike in the number of victims which lasted for several years and then dropped to nothing. That spike would indicate a "Dark Time."



Ermm.

Do we have ANY textev that any high tech 'computers' are being used - in terms of data entry?

From just my recollection, they have high tech lights, chairs, doors (and associated security 'wands' that unlock doors).. but not once do I recall anything about 'keyboards' and 'records' that weren't just books//written accounts on advanced paper or metal sheets.
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