TFT *SPOILERS* thoughts, discussions, and future speculation

what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

isaac_newton wrote:what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

Please. The nations have short memory. In 1944-1945 Soviet Army liberated millions of Polish and Czech peoples from Nazi camps - and how fast they started to grumble about "soviet occupation" afterward?

isaac_newton wrote:what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

I believe the scene with Wahllys at the end suggests that there are people in both Glacierheart and Thesmar who do not agree with the demonization of Charis.

There are probably a lot of Siddarmarkians who still grateful to Charis PERSONALLY, but they are disorganized, they lack the focal point, and many of them are dissatisfied with economical politics that they assotiated with Charisian influence. Basically they thought "Charisians are good guys, but their economic ideas are rubbish".

Thats why I suggest Levellers as a counterweight to the current Junta; they also populists (si the peoples would easily come in their support), they are against ultra-capitalistic economical politics of former Protectors (so they wouldnt be universally despised), and their ideas of "social and economical justice" are completely incompatible with current Junta powermongers property-grabbing goals.

Dilandu wrote:There are probably a lot of Siddarmarkians who still grateful to Charis PERSONALLY, but they are disorganized, they lack the focal point, and many of them are dissatisfied with economical politics that they assotiated with Charisian influence. Basically they thought "Charisians are good guys, but their economic ideas are rubbish".

Thats why I suggest Levellers as a counterweight to the current Junta; they also populists (si the peoples would easily come in their support), they are against ultra-capitalistic economical politics of former Protectors (so they wouldnt be universally despised), and their ideas of "social and economical justice" are completely incompatible with current Junta powermongers property-grabbing goals.

The aggregation of wealth through socialism or corrupt actions of oligarchs has the same effect on the economy. Too much concentration of wealth in too few hands creates serious problems. Tossing level ers into this mix simply changes which small group of people controls those industries. Public ownership doesn't change how limited the number of people who controls that wealth. Linking political power to property ownership in Siddermark either through the laudable goals of social justice or the base goals of pure greed will result in LESS political representation for the common folk. Wealth and political power will be consolidated in both scenarios which eliminates a whole slew of private vs public sector checks and balances.

PeterZ wrote:The aggregation of wealth through socialism or corrupt actions of oligarchs has the same effect on the economy. Too much concentration of wealth in too few hands creates serious problems.

Different kind of problems, I must point out. And socialism are usually quite better in creating stable, relatively prosperous life for a workers than oligarchical capitalism.

Linking political power to property ownership in Siddermark either through the laudable goals of social justice or the base goals of pure greed will result in LESS political representation for the common folk. Wealth and political power will be consolidated in both scenarios which eliminates a whole slew of private vs public sector checks and balances.

Well, I think you agree, than quasi-fascist oligarchical junta is the worst possible scenario?

PeterZ wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

I believe the scene with Wahllys at the end suggests that there are people in both Glacierheart and Thesmar who do not agree with the demonization of Charis.

Yes - that is true, but I was expecting more in, say, Siddar when they [those alive in that times] absolutely knew that they were just a few days from being overrun by a vengful AOG and then 'sieved' by the Inquisition!

PeterZ wrote:The aggregation of wealth through socialism or corrupt actions of oligarchs has the same effect on the economy. Too much concentration of wealth in too few hands creates serious problems.

Dilandu wrote:
Different kind of problems, I must point out. And socialism are usually quite better in creating stable, relatively prosperous life for a workers than oligarchical capitalism.

Linking political power to property ownership in Siddermark either through the laudable goals of social justice or the base goals of pure greed will result in LESS political representation for the common folk. Wealth and political power will be consolidated in both scenarios which eliminates a whole slew of private vs public sector checks and balances.

Dilandu wrote:
Well, I think you agree, than quasi-fascist oligarchical junta is the worst possible scenario?

Indeed. I do agree. However, I don't see enough difference between oligarchical facists and communists to qualify for different definitions. That sort of distinction is akin to arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Furthermore, I don't see enough difference between corrupt oligarchs and democratic socialism that uses the powers of government to squash dissent from their views to merrit a distinction either.

Strong central control of potical power and wealth is euqally bad no matter the justification. Those sorts of societies are incented to share just enough power and wealth to reduce the chance of rebellion. That sort of stability breeds stagnation. The sort of stagnation that led to the Harchong Empire. Centralized power will always draw those who desire to exercise power at the expense of the sincere true believers and eventually corrupting the laudible guiding goals that birthed the system to begin with.

Dilandu wrote:There are probably a lot of Siddarmarkians who still grateful to Charis PERSONALLY, but they are disorganized, they lack the focal point, and many of them are dissatisfied with economical politics that they assotiated with Charisian influence. Basically they thought "Charisians are good guys, but their economic ideas are rubbish".

SNIP.

Yes - I think that sounds true to real life.

It's pretty likely that the next few years will bring that back to focus - but as we also know from RL it can take a loooong time!

isaac_newton wrote:what does sort of suprise me has been the 'apparent' absence of people who likely to be strongly/vocally pro Charis - e.g all those saved from the camps or saved at the last minute from the COGA army breakthrus or saved by the food shipments.

PeterZ wrote:I believe the scene with Wahllys at the end suggests that there are people in both Glacierheart and Thesmar who do not agree with the demonization of Charis.

isaac_newton wrote:Yes - that is true, but I was expecting more in, say, Siddar when they [those alive in that times] absolutely knew that they were just a few days from being overrun by a venegul AOG and then 'sieved' by the inquisition!

I agree with Dilandu's take on this. Those citizens separate their personal gratitude from their view of the current apparant differences between Siddermarkian motivations and Charisian ones. Yeah, I grateful to Charis for saving us when our motivations aligned in the jihad. Things are different now. Their motivations are supporting policies that are hurting Siddermark.

How many Safeholdians understand enough of the dismal science to refute Hygyns's cronies arguments in the face of all that economic devastation? Toss in an insufficient number of persuasive voices calling for forgiveness and we have the perfect petrie dish to incubate the worst forms of demagoguery. Now add in the corruption rampant in the republic and you've just tossed that petrie dish into a vat of agar.

One wonders if that's what killed Zhasyn Cahnyr? He finally recognized there were simply too few voices to change this awful tide. His would never make the essential difference for Siddermark. It was enough for Glacierheart and perhaps Thesmar, but not enough for Siddermark as a whole.