[SPOILERS] Lost Testament of Schueler

We know now.
Great speculation BTW !
Himself is an avatar of a trickster god.
I certainly didn't see it coming the way it did.

TangoLima wrote:We know now.
Great speculation BTW !
Himself is an avatar of a trickster god.
I certainly didn't see it coming the way it did.

The only question is what is the REAL origin of the Testament. I can't imagine the secret being kept from the READER for very long given how much Weber likes to go into the inner workings of the Inner Circle.

IOW, if the Testament is actually something fabricated by the Inner Circle (even if everything in it is actually from the Stone), we should find that out basically as soon as we have the first scene with them in it. And if the Testament WASN'T created by the Inner Circle, we should find that out in the same scene.

evilauthor wrote:

TangoLima wrote:We know now.
Great speculation BTW !
Himself is an avatar of a trickster god.
I certainly didn't see it coming the way it did.

The only question is what is the REAL origin of the Testament. I can't imagine the secret being kept from the READER for very long given how much Weber likes to go into the inner workings of the Inner Circle.

IOW, if the Testament is actually something fabricated by the Inner Circle (even if everything in it is actually from the Stone), we should find that out basically as soon as we have the first scene with them in it. And if the Testament WASN'T created by the Inner Circle, we should find that out in the same scene.

Given the name "Operation Androcles", given that it was Narhman's operation and that Cayleb authorized it, given that he did so exactly one scene earlier, and given the fact that Androcles was Schueler's first name... given all that, is there ANY realistic chance this isn't a semi-fraud perpetrated by the Inner Circle? Mind you it's probably only a semi-fraud. I (strongly) suspect -- no proof yet of course -- that every word in the book will actually turn out to be true, at least by Obi-Wan Kenobi standards. But Schueler still didn't actually appear to his followers as 'he' claimed. He's been dead for several hundred years now, it's a bit hard for a corpse to talk.

The only other option I see ATM is that they figured out how to properly use the Key and took it to the temple in question and plugged it in to see what happens. Possible, yeah. Likely? No.

Odds are quite high (of course) there's a third option Weber will deign to inform us of in about 12-24 months...

FriarBob,

I see why you got there, but totally disagree. THIS is the Return Paityr's recording speaks of: the Schueler visitation. Had this been a Nahrmahn special, the visitation would have commented on Clyntahn's excesses as the reason for his visit. Clyntahn was already viewed as causing a huge wrong turn for Safehold. Also, the IC wouldn't have lied when they knew the Archangels were coming back according to Schueler. Falsifying another return is simply begging to have their forgery revealed.

Project Androcles refers to Adroclese and the Lion. The Lion being the CoGA. Charis pulled the thorn of Clyntahn from the CoGA's paw. They gave the CoGA back its moral compass in Grand Vicar Robhair.

How will the IC benefit from that good will? I believe that by materially rewarding the CoGA the more the CoGA practices it's moral authority as Safehold's conscience, Charis creates a precedence for future Grand Vicars. Charis will put their resources at the CoGA's disposal just as they did in North Harchong so long as the CoGA remains ONLY Safehold's conscience.

Of course, Project Androcles could refer to something completely different from a faked visitation or any reference Androcles and the Lion.

FriarBob wrote:SNIP

Given the name "Operation Androcles", given that it was Narhman's operation and that Cayleb authorized it, given that he did so exactly one scene earlier, and given the fact that Androcles was Schueler's first name... given all that, is there ANY realistic chance this isn't a semi-fraud perpetrated by the Inner Circle? Mind you it's probably only a semi-fraud. I (strongly) suspect -- no proof yet of course -- that every word in the book will actually turn out to be true, at least by Obi-Wan Kenobi standards. But Schueler still didn't actually appear to his followers as 'he' claimed. He's been dead for several hundred years now, it's a bit hard for a corpse to talk.

The only other option I see ATM is that they figured out how to properly use the Key and took it to the temple in question and plugged it in to see what happens. Possible, yeah. Likely? No.
quote]

I had completely forgotten that fact!!
that does put a different complection on things BUT it still seems to be so against all that the inner circle have been thinking/doing.

FriarBob wrote:Odds are quite high (of course) there's a third option Weber will deign to inform us of in about 12-24 months...

what a great ending to leave us all spinning in these circles!

PeterZ wrote:Project Androcles refers to Adroclese and the Lion. The Lion being the CoGA. Charis pulled the thorn of Clyntahn from the CoGA's paw. They gave the CoGA back its moral compass in Grand Vicar Robhair.

This makes no sense. "So I suppose it’s time to initiate the second stage of the nefarious Nahrmahn Plan?" ... "You suppose correctly,"... "You and Owl are cleared for Operation Androcles." Present and/or future tense throughout. Rohbair is dead for one, and the 'thorn' in this case was pulled 15 years ago. And NOW they're cleared for the operation? Doesn't hold water.

PeterZ wrote:Had this been a Nahrmahn special, the visitation would have commented on Clyntahn's excesses as the reason for his visit.

But he did. Oh not specifically. But "enough time has passed" is VERY hard to explain any other way. There is literally NO WAY a recording made 800-odd years ago could possibly know A) the evil deeds would happen (predict it, yes, *know* it, no), and that B) the deeds would have been stopped and rejected.

The only way I can see this being a recording is if it was programmed to appear after a declaration of Holy War. In that case there would have to have been an alternate message prepared in case no such war occurred in time before the 1000 year deadline. And possibly another one if there was a war and the war did not actually end. I doubt this is what happened, but I suppose it's theoretically possible.

PeterZ wrote:Also, the IC wouldn't have lied when they knew the Archangels were coming back according to Schueler. Falsifying another return is simply begging to have their forgery revealed.

Which is why I don't like it. At all. Because yes, it is extremely risky. So I would strongly prefer another one.

But no other explanation yet provided makes sense. Especially not when you consider that the book also starts with Merlin thinking to himself "And I do like Nahrmahn’s notion about the opening round if we decide a time’s come when we can go after the inerrancy of the Writ." If this isn't Narhmahn's "opening round" I'll gladly eat the crow. But I don't think I'm going to have to.

Now there were many speculations about a dormant AI and/or dormant personality recording. *maybe* that's what this is, a personality recording that 'woke up' and incorporated some recent events into its planned speech. *maybe*. (Under this scenario, the "hour of the church's greatest need" bit WRT the Key would suggest a backup method to activate the personality recording *earlier* than planned.)

But short of that, I just don't see any other viable explanation. If you can see one please let me know. But the operation was NOT being authorized as some sort of past-tense cleanup. That's nonsense. Whatever Operation Androcles is, whether we saw its opening act or not, there is no way it was authorized to start 15 years after it took effect.

FriarBob wrote:Given the name "Operation Androcles", given that it was Narhman's operation and that Cayleb authorized it, given that he did so exactly one scene earlier, and given the fact that Androcles was Schueler's first name... given all that, is there ANY realistic chance this isn't a semi-fraud perpetrated by the Inner Circle? Mind you it's probably only a semi-fraud. I (strongly) suspect -- no proof yet of course -- that every word in the book will actually turn out to be true, at least by Obi-Wan Kenobi standards. But Schueler still didn't actually appear to his followers as 'he' claimed. He's been dead for several hundred years now, it's a bit hard for a corpse to talk.

The only other option I see ATM is that they figured out how to properly use the Key and took it to the temple in question and plugged it in to see what happens. Possible, yeah. Likely? No.

Odds are quite high (of course) there's a third option Weber will deign to inform us of in about 12-24 months...

It's probably a copy of the original Book of Scheuler that Nimue studied in the cave.

Okay, lets look at the situation in details:

1) The "Schueller" speech was incredibly vague. He did not mention any of actual events, or persons. If it WAS Narhmann & Owl behind this, why they put something so vague in the mouth of their dummy?

2) The "Schueller" clearly blamed Chichiro, not Langhorne for the whole mess. Unless N&O somehow obtained the whole data about War Against the Fallen - which wasn't mentioned in any way in the book - making such direct accusation would be incredibly dangerous. It would do little good, if Archangels, when return, would be easily able to disprove all thing just by catching N&O on obvious mistakes.

3) Start the whole situation less than a year after the first possible date of Return would be incredibly stupid. Such actions may NOT be left unnoticed by Temple automatic. So, basically, if the "Schueller" is N&O work, it looks like "Hooray, Archangels did not Return this year and we have eighty years till next possibility. We could do so much during this time! So, let's go poke the Temple, and maybe provoke Archangels to return tomorrow!"

4) Merlin quite rigidly opposed using "mystical" events for his agenda. It seems rather strange, that he so eagerly decided to threw all his precaution away & start to play God openly.

In short - the idea that N & O is behind "Schueller" didnt seems right.

FB,
Of course I agree with Dilandu's logic. I also think there has to be an alternative plan that makes sense while in keeping with the existing IC strategy of never lying. The more I consider those parameters, the more I revisit the SSK. That is true evidence of SOMEONE's betrayal of some element of Langehorne's plan.

Using the St. Zherneau approach in slowly and throughly reveal the Sister's millennia long charge of preserving Saint Khody's memory seems much more likely. The documentation is iron clad. Toss in the KEY and use the Stone to verify the authenticity of everything and they don't need the Visitation. The slower approach over 4 score years would have eroded the absolute certainty of Safehold's current understanding of history and theology. That seems a more likely Project Androcles.

PeterZ wrote:Using the St. Zherneau approach in slowly and throughly reveal the Sister's millennia long charge of preserving Saint Khody's memory seems much more likely. The documentation is iron clad. Toss in the KEY and use the Stone to verify the authenticity of everything and they don't need the Visitation. The slower approach over 4 score years would have eroded the absolute certainty of Safehold's current understanding of history and theology. That seems a more likely Project Androcles.

Exactly. And it wouldn't risk to trigger some analytical program, left behind to notice the unplanned "mystical" events.