***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

evilauthor wrote:
Oh well, I guess we'll find out next book. Whenever that is.

Don't remind me (us)... it's going to be a long 1.5-2 years >.>

The most important question: how would Temple automatic react, when everybody started to talk about supposed "Archangel visit" that was NOT on schedule?

Logically, there should be some automatic system on standby, watching exactly for such events. Because:

* Archangels perfectly understood, that they could not possibly eradicate ALL "demonic" influence. They have all reasons to assume, that some "demon" might actually left some hidden holographic device exactly with that plan in mind - to wait several centuries and then arrange the "Archangel visit" to shatter the Church doctrine.

* Archangels probably have quite a lot of reason to suspect each other of trying to circumvent the main plan for their own benefits. After all, it was exactly what Chichiro (and, at least partially, Schueller) done with Langhorne initial concept. So, they have all reasons to suspect that someone of Archangels due-to-return may try & implement some... changes into Church doctrine by arranging the "premature" visit.

So, logically, some kind of warning system must be implemented. And since it is impossible to predict where and when such "time bomb" may go active - the only logical point would be the Temple. Any rumor about "archangel visit" out of schedule would clearly eventually find the way into the Temple, and into its listening devices. And if such theme started to be overused - this is clearly a trigger to activate some response.

Agreed, that is not definitive proof of knowledge of current events. Unfortunately, that's all it's not.

That it is genuine is entirely plausible: this is Schueler's response to some realisation - simply that Shan Wei had been right from the beginning, perhaps, or that the way Chirhiro had operated for the last 20 years or whatever meant that the Church as it now was would inevitably fail even if she hadn't, originally, been right. Maybe the final straw was Chihiro, who may have thought that Schueler was 'too soft', waving a Book under his nose and saying 'what are you going to do about it?' By the end of the War, Schueler probably knew that he would lose any direct confrontation, and started taking steps that would lead to the events now unfolding - if this isn't the Church's 'ultimate need', I don't know what is, but as others have suggested, maybe the detailed instructions were mislaid.

However, it's equally plausible that this is a fake. Owl and Narmahn have access to holo recordings of Schueler. If they sat down together and said "Assume the Schueler of the Key is the real Schueler. What would he say and write to be released in 1000 years if he decided that the Church had to be brought down, and that was sufficient time for it to undermine itself enough so that if he gave it a shove... And where would he have hidden it... OK, let's get moving!", I have to say that this looks like exactly what they'd come up with.

So I'm solidly on the fence on this one, and intend to stay there until we learn far more. I need to get a better cushion, too. My bum is already sore.

Mind you, I do have one theory to advance: this whole thing was written with malice aforethought, to set a 'cat among a very specific flock of pigeons. And that reminds me: we really should come up with a proper designation, along the lines of 'Barfly'. 'forumites' is just too non-specific.

Isilith wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it.

Keith_w wrote:Just read it and I agree, Operation Androcles it is.

It seems like you are really leaping to conclusions there. All Schueler would have needed to make that "evil deeds" statement, was knowledge of the book of Schueler and the punishment put in it.

A valid point, but you have to remember that as far as we know the 'return' was a closely-held family secret, not an element of Church doctrine. Samyl Wylsynn was senior enough in the Order of Schueler to know if there were any secrets that might point this way, even if he didn't know the exact details. And, originally, the Order was too low in the pecking order to have been entrusted with such a secret in the first place - it would have been confided to Langhorne or Chihiro, either the Sword or the Quill or both. Places where people like Rhobair Duchairn and Hauwerd Wylsynn would have been aware of it.

If the Church didn't know about a planned return, it's very likely that the programmers of the Temple AI didn't know either.

Dilandu wrote:The most important question: how would Temple automatic react, when everybody started to talk about supposed "Archangel visit" that was NOT on schedule?

Logically, there should be some automatic system on standby, watching exactly for such events. Because:

* Archangels perfectly understood, that they could not possibly eradicate ALL "demonic" influence. They have all reasons to assume, that some "demon" might actually left some hidden holographic device exactly with that plan in mind - to wait several centuries and then arrange the "Archangel visit" to shatter the Church doctrine.

* Archangels probably have quite a lot of reason to suspect each other of trying to circumvent the main plan for their own benefits. After all, it was exactly what Chichiro (and, at least partially, Schueller) done with Langhorne initial concept. So, they have all reasons to suspect that someone of Archangels due-to-return may try & implement some... changes into Church doctrine by arranging the "premature" visit.

So, logically, some kind of warning system must be implemented. And since it is impossible to predict where and when such "time bomb" may go active - the only logical point would be the Temple. Any rumor about "archangel visit" out of schedule would clearly eventually find the way into the Temple, and into its listening devices. And if such theme started to be overused - this is clearly a trigger to activate some response.

Louis R wrote:A valid point, but you have to remember that as far as we know the 'return' was a closely-held family secret, not an element of Church doctrine. Samyl Wylsynn was senior enough in the Order of Schueler to know if there were any secrets that might point this way, even if he didn't know the exact details. And, originally, the Order was too low in the pecking order to have been entrusted with such a secret in the first place - it would have been confided to Langhorne or Chihiro, either the Sword or the Quill or both. Places where people like Rhobair Duchairn and Hauwerd Wylsynn would have been aware of it.

If the Church didn't know about a planned return, it's very likely that the programmers of the Temple AI didn't know either.

With all respect, but it didn't make sense. The Temple - with all its underground structures and systems - was obviously build to be used at some time. So, the fact that Archangels are supposed to return someday was pretty obvious for those who build & programmed the Temple. I.e. the whole "Operation: Holy Visit" wasn't a surprise for operational staff at least.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it.

Keith_w wrote:Just read it and I agree, Operation Androcles it is.

Sorry, but there's nothing conclusive in his words. Decent human beings have had more than enough time to figure out that the punishments in the "Book of Schueler" are evil.

And while they're not in the Temple City, they put together a lot of flash, flash that could easily be detected by the Temple's / interdiction system's sensors.

They've just decided they've dodged a major bullet, and will have 80 years to much with Safehold without the systems rousing. It would be rather stupid of them to take the kind of risk you're claiming they took.

"Androcles and the Lion" is about a guy who saves a wounded lion, and later the lion doesn't kill him in the arena. How you get from that name, to this action, is beyond me.

evilauthor wrote:

justdave wrote:remember the inner circle has gone out of it’s way to never lie about GOGA

Yeah, and this is what makes me wonder if it's really the Inner Circle that's faking Schueler's return. They've always been damned careful before to avoid faking divinity because they knew they'd have to come clean eventually and reinforcing faith in any kind in the Church's religion - especially the fake parts - is the last thing they want.

I find it more likely that Schueler left message time bombs behind, especially in his own Church.

Oh well, I guess we'll find out next book. Whenever that is.

Yes - I also really can't see this would be the case.

They[inner circle] now 'know' that they have 80 years to play with - they seem to want to calm things down, not trigger insane intercommunal strife which is what this latest revlation will do.

moroever they have always stood against doing pretend appearences by pseudo Archangels of their own divising before. They want to get away from a revation based society, so creating this Scheuler appearence would be against all they have done/believed.

Still - as you say - will just have to wait!

It will turn out the way DW has planned.
That said, bragging rights for the closest speculation !
I think it is a double fake by DW and we will get slammed from an entirely unexpected vector.
I do agree the Narhman tearing out his virtual hair has
a certain appeal. Picking Scheulers's Day and Cathedral
is a most potent portent no matter who-done-it.

Dilandu wrote:
With all respect, but it didn't make sense. The Temple - with all its underground structures and systems - was obviously build to be used at some time. So, the fact that Archangels are supposed to return someday was pretty obvious for those who build & programmed the Temple. I.e. the whole "Operation: Holy Visit" wasn't a surprise for operational staff at least.

This isn't exactly accurate.

Remember, when we (the reader) found out about Seijin Khody, and the order of .. nuns? that exists unto the present. We also found out that there was a gap in time between the 'Alexandria Strike, and subsequent 'vest pocket nuke'.. and the actual war of the fallen.

My understanding of this is that after the nuke went off.. Chihiro and Scheuler (sp?) built Zion.. and built that huge bunker specifically because they realized/thought/anticipated the war of the fallen to occur... which it did.

So in essence, the reason the temple was built as a fortress//PDB, has already occured.

GregD wrote:"Androcles and the Lion" is about a guy who saves a wounded lion, and later the lion doesn't kill him in the arena. How you get from that name, to this action, is beyond me.

Schueler's first name was Androcles. I don't recall where/when that was revealed, but that's the derivation of Nahrman's plan name.