***Major Spoiler*** The ending scene of Through Fiery Trials

Direwolf18 wrote: quote="Henry Brown" quote="Direwolf18" Agreed. My take away of this was that it was Nahrmahns plan. That being said I think this is a big of a gamble and I personally would have waited a couple of years but hey. /quote


I missed the fact that it might have been Nahramhn's plan initially. But now that you and other posters have mentioned it, I have to agree. But what do you think they would have gained by waiting? I have the opposite idea, that breaking down the church is going to take a long time and that they need to get started on it as soon as possible. /quote


I have actually been noodling this around, and I will be honest it was my first reaction, I just have a bad gut feeling that something is going to go wrong. I freely admit I am a very cautious soul by nature, and this is a radical departure from their normal mode of operation.

That being said I think the part that worries me is that I think that everyone might be off by a year... Remember when introduced the concept of zero? What if the timer actually starts at year 1, the first official year in the calendar, and not say year 0. So instead of the archangel popping out at the start of the year it would be the end.

Maybe I am jumping at shadows, but I personally would have gone with a 20 month safe period instead of what, a 5 month?

Of COURSE something is going to go wrong - where would the fun be if everything went right?

Also, the first year was the year 1 - in the Christian era we went from from 1 BC to 1 AD. Zero represents absence and there was never an absence of a year.

justdave wrote:remember the inner circle has gone out of it’s way to never lie about GOGA

Yeah, and this is what makes me wonder if it's really the Inner Circle that's faking Schueler's return. They've always been damned careful before to avoid faking divinity because they knew they'd have to come clean eventually and reinforcing faith in any kind in the Church's religion - especially the fake parts - is the last thing they want.

I find it more likely that Schueler left message time bombs behind, especially in his own Church.

Oh well, I guess we'll find out next book. Whenever that is.

Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it.

Keith_w wrote:Just read it and I agree, Operation Androcles it is.

Well, a single copy that no mortal could create or destroy (as far as most Safeholdians would see) should be enough to "make things interesting".

Keith_w wrote:Also, I am itching to know if it was just the one location or multiple locations. It seems to me that 1 report of the return of Schueler might be disbelieved, even with the "new" testimony. Multiple reports, multiple copies, much better.

I've gone back and forth on whether I think it's genuine. And the reason I've gone back and forth is that I've never entirely bought the notion that Schueller was the actual author of the Book of Schueller.

I have no external evidence of this, but one interpretation that occurred to me after we got the message Schueller left the Wylsyn family is that Schueller was himself deeply religious. And maybe he went along with the plan initially, or maybe that religion lapsed or something later on, but what if he had a Duchairn-type crisis of faith in the midst of the war against the fallen?

Because if he did, and if he confronted Chihiro, got killed for his troubles, and got the book that involved torturing people to maintain the lie Schueller himself rejected named after him as a last middle finger from Chihiro, hiding an easter egg with the truth to appear, say, 1,000 years later, setting up the Wylsyns to counter whatever Chihiro was going to do in the church, and finding some way to monitor stuff happening in your own order's core territory would... kind of make sense.

BTW: this also ties in with my theory about what's on the key: Schueller's electronic personality. There's enough storage for it, and it would have been smart of him to have multiple back-ups.

Yes, the idea that the inner circle did this themselves is consistent with whatever "Operation Androcles" was intended to achieve, but the thing I can't get out of my head is that it's equally consistent with what I'd expect Schueller to do if he wanted to make sure the truth got out, but didn't think he could take down Chihiro openly.

And then there's the final aspect, and this is why I hope it's genuinely Schueller: the next book is way, way, way more interesting if the inner circle had been planning something else and didn't see this coming. It's not like I'd be disappointed if it was the inner circle, but the other way's considerably more fun, so I kinda hope that's where it's going.

DrakBibliophile wrote:Well, a single copy that no mortal could create or destroy (as far as most Safeholdians would see) should be enough to "make things interesting".

Keith_w wrote:Also, I am itching to know if it was just the one location or multiple locations. It seems to me that 1 report of the return of Schueler might be disbelieved, even with the "new" testimony. Multiple reports, multiple copies, much better.

I also have to admit that I really, really did not see that ending coming [or indeed most of the plot!]

That is really going to set the cat lizard among the pigeons!!

How will the Bishop take the news [testament] to Zion?

How will the COGA react [both the current grand Vicar and also more widely.?

Will the Charisian empire support it? Their nice plans for slow developments right out of the window at the least!


BTW is there any details on this Androcles plan? The name just seems to be thrown in - or have I missed soemthing?


a question on the thousand years...
Schuler died quite a few years after the 'Creation', but his reappearance only occured a few months after the first expected date for the 1000 years anniversary.
Has something got compacted or did that just mean that he was working on a 'long time'...

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it.

Keith_w wrote:Just read it and I agree, Operation Androcles it is.

It seems like you are really leaping to conclusions there. All Schueler would have needed to make that "evil deeds" statement, was knowledge of the book of Schueler and the punishment put in it.

I think the timeline is waaaaaay too close to the 1000 years deadline from the Key to rule out this being the Archangels' return that the Wylsynns were warned of. Especially as the Schuler of the Key sounds very different from the Book of Schuler

It would be very very interesting if the first chapter of the next book has Nahrmahn telling the Inner Circle "This Is Not What I had planned".

AJNolte wrote:I've gone back and forth on whether I think it's genuine. And the reason I've gone back and forth is that I've never entirely bought the notion that Schueller was the actual author of the Book of Schueller.

I have no external evidence of this, but one interpretation that occurred to me after we got the message Schueller left the Wylsyn family is that Schueller was himself deeply religious. And maybe he went along with the plan initially, or maybe that religion lapsed or something later on, but what if he had a Duchairn-type crisis of faith in the midst of the war against the fallen?

Because if he did, and if he confronted Chihiro, got killed for his troubles, and got the book that involved torturing people to maintain the lie Schueller himself rejected named after him as a last middle finger from Chihiro, hiding an easter egg with the truth to appear, say, 1,000 years later, setting up the Wylsyns to counter whatever Chihiro was going to do in the church, and finding some way to monitor stuff happening in your own order's core territory would... kind of make sense.

BTW: this also ties in with my theory about what's on the key: Schueller's electronic personality. There's enough storage for it, and it would have been smart of him to have multiple back-ups.

Yes, the idea that the inner circle did this themselves is consistent with whatever "Operation Androcles" was intended to achieve, but the thing I can't get out of my head is that it's equally consistent with what I'd expect Schueller to do if he wanted to make sure the truth got out, but didn't think he could take down Chihiro openly.

And then there's the final aspect, and this is why I hope it's genuinely Schueller: the next book is way, way, way more interesting if the inner circle had been planning something else and didn't see this coming. It's not like I'd be disappointed if it was the inner circle, but the other way's considerably more fun, so I kinda hope that's where it's going.

I've jumped to conclusions before and will likely do so again, but "Schueler's" words imply IMO that it is something more than just the words in the Book of Schueler.

Especially since He talks about His listeners had time to realize that He wouldn't have approved of the deeds done in His Name.

Isilith wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Definitely and the most important clue is in "Schueler's" words.

While He doesn't mention Clyntahn by name, the phrase "Terrible, evil deeds were done in my name" obviously refer to Clyntahn's actions.

If the real Schueler had recorded this and arranged for the delivery of the physical book, then he had to be a Real Archangel to arrange for the event happening so soon after some events caused by somebody like Clyntahn.

Now a Cybernetic copy (AI or PICA) of Schueler could have been behind it, but there is strong evidence that Nahrmahn is behind this appearance unless....

Cybernetic Schueler beat Nahrmahn to it.

It seems like you are really leaping to conclusions there. All Schueler would have needed to make that "evil deeds" statement, was knowledge of the book of Schueler and the punishment put in it.