How big will the Star Empire of Manticore's economy be?

PeterZ wrote:That's assuming the SL openly accepts that third parties are involved in fanning the flames of this war. If they do accept that, then must also accept the SEM may indeed have been right all along regarding the MAlign. Because of the timing of stealth grasers destroying the FTL component of Mycroft, those terrorist third parties were acting with knowledge of the SLN plans. That argues for some coordination between the SLN and those terrorists which resulted in 40 million dead. There were agents in place within the SL federal government linked to those terrorists. Those agents influenced SL policy. That influence facilitated the terrorist attacks on Beowulf.

If the SL does not acknowledge an unknown third party, any terrorist attack was launched BECAUSE the SL was willing to use force to prohibit Beowulf's secession. It's a tacit approval of using force to deny Beowulf their constitutional rights.

Either way the SL's actions resulted in premeditated actions leading to 40 million deaths and the destruction of 3 orbital habitats.

The deaths were premeditated by the Malign, not by the Solarian League. It is terrible that the Solarian government had gotten to the point that agents linked to the terrorists could influence policy and actions, but it remains true that the bombs at Beowulf had nothing to do with the League. Just as Oyster Bay had nothing to do with the League, even though the SLN tried to take advantage of it.

The terrorist attack on Beowulf was timed to cast guilt on the League, but could have occurred at any time that the Detweilers chose.

I expect that the League should rebuild orbital infrastructure in the 6 systems affected by Buccaneer, but the GA does not need to force that.

[quote="PeterZ"]I think we may have forgotten some minor details in the rebuilding process. The most prominent is reparations.


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Basically, the reparations question is still on the table -- The SL (ver 1.0 or ver 2.0) bears direct responsibility for those systems that they "Bucaneered", especially the neutral/non-belligerent systems that the SLN hit as demonstrations.

The various core world systems "should" be able to produce the solar collectors and reproduce the orbital platforms out of their production excess.

The dissolution of the OFS and return/transfer of worm hole/warp-bridge platforms (and revenue) to friendly, local system control will spur local development. (I leave aside discussion of the Felix bridges and Felix's association with Mannerheim/Renaissance for another venue).

Beowulf was certainly "Buccaneered"; that was at least the intention. That "parties unknown" used that as a cover/distraction to trigger the nucs in the shipping bays has 2 issues -- 1) "parties unknown" DID have access to and influenced the SLN planning process. "Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offence" (UCMJ extract). 2) Higher security is needed for arrived/pending shipping -- this is discussed in another thread.

-- Stewart

PeterZ wrote:I think we may have forgotten some minor details in the rebuilding process. The most prominent is reparations.

stewart wrote:Basically, the reparations question is still on the table -- The SL (ver 1.0 or ver 2.0) bears direct responsibility for those systems that they "Bucaneered", especially the neutral/non-belligerent systems that the SLN hit as demonstrations.

The various core world systems "should" be able to produce the solar collectors and reproduce the orbital platforms out of their production excess.

The dissolution of the OFS and return/transfer of worm hole/warp-bridge platforms (and revenue) to friendly, local system control will spur local development. (I leave aside discussion of the Felix bridges and Felix's association with Mannerheim/Renaissance for another venue).

Beowulf was certainly "Buccaneered"; that was at least the intention. That "parties unknown" used that as a cover/distraction to trigger the nucs in the shipping bays has 2 issues -- 1) "parties unknown" DID have access to and influenced the SLN planning rocess. "Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offence" (UCMJ extract). 2) Higher security is needed for arrived/pending shipping -- this is discussed in another thread.

Beowulf was not "Buccaneered", the SLN had a much more limited objective of destroying the factory line making the missiles for the RMN; which happens to be a perfectly reasonable military target. The fact that spies were aware of the SLN plans is not something that any country should hold against the Solarian League. A joke about the definition of rape is immaterial and irrelevant.

The reparations for those neutral systems is not something with which the GA has to formally concern itself.

PeterZ wrote:I think we may have forgotten some minor details in the rebuilding process. The most prominent is reparations.

stewart wrote:Basically, the reparations question is still on the table -- The SL (ver 1.0 or ver 2.0) bears direct responsibility for those systems that they "Bucaneered", especially the neutral/non-belligerent systems that the SLN hit as demonstrations.

The various core world systems "should" be able to produce the solar collectors and reproduce the orbital platforms out of their production excess.

The dissolution of the OFS and return/transfer of worm hole/warp-bridge platforms (and revenue) to friendly, local system control will spur local development. (I leave aside discussion of the Felix bridges and Felix's association with Mannerheim/Renaissance for another venue).

Beowulf was certainly "Buccaneered"; that was at least the intention. That "parties unknown" used that as a cover/distraction to trigger the nucs in the shipping bays has 2 issues -- 1) "parties unknown" DID have access to and influenced the SLN planning rocess. "Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offence" (UCMJ extract). 2) Higher security is needed for arrived/pending shipping -- this is discussed in another thread.

tlb wrote:Beowulf was not "Buccaneered", the SLN had a much more limited objective of destroying the factory line making the missiles for the RMN; which happens to be a perfectly reasonable military target. The fact that spies were aware of the SLN plans is not something that any country should hold against the Solarian League. A joke about the definition of rape is immaterial and irrelevant.

The reparations for those neutral systems is not something with which the GA has to formally concern itself.

They are if those Buccaneered worlds are interested in joining theGA.

As for Beowulf, the damage done to them came from a coordinated attack from those that set up the nukes and the SLN. MAlign agents influenced SL policy in the war. There is ample evidence of this. Demanding the SL contribute to the rebuilding their policies allowed to be destroyed in the first place is not beyon the pale.

Including the cost of rebuilding Beowulf's damage to rebuilding the Buccaneered systems damage is relatively minor.

tlb wrote:

PeterZ wrote:That's assuming the SL openly accepts that third parties are involved in fanning the flames of this war. If they do accept that, then must also accept the SEM may indeed have been right all along regarding the MAlign. Because of the timing of stealth grasers destroying the FTL component of Mycroft, those terrorist third parties were acting with knowledge of the SLN plans. That argues for some coordination between the SLN and those terrorists which resulted in 40 million dead. There were agents in place within the SL federal government linked to those terrorists. Those agents influenced SL policy. That influence facilitated the terrorist attacks on Beowulf.

If the SL does not acknowledge an unknown third party, any terrorist attack was launched BECAUSE the SL was willing to use force to prohibit Beowulf's secession. It's a tacit approval of using force to deny Beowulf their constitutional rights.

Either way the SL's actions resulted in premeditated actions leading to 40 million deaths and the destruction of 3 orbital habitats.

The deaths were premeditated by the Malign, not by the Solarian League. It is terrible that the Solarian government had gotten to the point that agents linked to the terrorists could influence policy and actions, but it remains true that the bombs at Beowulf had nothing to do with the League. Just as Oyster Bay had nothing to do with the League, even though the SLN tried to take advantage of it.

The terrorist attack on Beowulf was timed to cast guilt on the League, but could have occurred at any time that the Detweilers chose.

I expect that the League should rebuild orbital infrastructure in the 6 systems affected by Buccaneer, but the GA does not need to force that.

No they don't need to force reparations. They can use that complicity to force those Core worlds to contribute production modules as in expensively as possibly. The more resources used to produce those modules, the quicker the destruction is made good.

tlb wrote:I expect that the League should rebuild orbital infrastructure in the 6 systems affected by Buccaneer, but the GA does not need to force that.

PeterZ wrote:No they don't need to force reparations. They can use that complicity to force those Core worlds to contribute production modules as in expensively as possibly. The more resources used to produce those modules, the quicker the destruction is made good.

I agree, except that I think that the SLN committed Eridani Edict violations in Buccaneer and using that would serve better as a lever to force action.

PS: you did mean "inexpensively", didn't you?

tlb wrote:I expect that the League should rebuild orbital infrastructure in the 6 systems affected by Buccaneer, but the GA does not need to force that.

PeterZ wrote:No they don't need to force reparations. They can use that complicity to force those Core worlds to contribute production modules as in expensively as possibly. The more resources used to produce those modules, the quicker the destruction is made good.

tlb wrote:I agree, except that I think that the SLN committed Eridani Edict violations in Buccaneer and using that would serve better as a lever to force action.

PS: you did mean "inexpensively", didn't you?

Curse you, Autocorrupt!

And hit them with both arguments to guilt them into paying the entire cost. If each argument was passionately advocated by a serious faction of the GA, the SL my just cough up the money for both Beowulf and Manticore as well as the Indy Core worlds.

PeterZ wrote:So the SEM gets the SL to cough up reparations for the damage Buccaneer did. That's still 6 systems' orbital infrastructure the SL rebuilds.

Sure. And Mntocore gets to pay to rebuild earths.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:So the SEM gets the SL to cough up reparations for the damage Buccaneer did. That's still 6 systems' orbital infrastructure the SL rebuilds.

Sure. And Mntocore gets to pay to rebuild earths.

They can ask. Don't have the juice to squeeze it out of the GA though. The GA does have the press to squeeze it out of the SL. The moral press as well as the military press to squeeze the SL.

I suspect the fact that the SL attacked first and continued attacking despite repeated calls to negotiate supports the assertion the Sol had it coming.

Not completely through UH yet, but it stated that Manticore's economy was so successful it had to reinvest in other markets to keep the immense surplus of cash flow generated by the MWJ from saturating the market and causing inflation.

Even if they choose to rebuild any Solarian scorched Earth, they could simply insist on using their own manpower from the SEM or from newly acquired territories to do it, thus creating many jobs and "keeping it in the family."