Haven Victorious

isaac_newton wrote:hmmmm - not sure that's true. It would be very suprising if they did have self destruct mechanisms... Murphy etc

They would have measures to scuttle the ship. Triggering those mechanisms while the fusion reactors are running might cause things to go boom even if they are intended to slag the fancy tech bits after everyone evacuates.

State sec had gotten very paranoid and had a pattern of installing bombs in major military assets that could be triggered if the misbehaved. It’s a very possible option, but not the only one. David has never explained what exactly happened. It’s possible he didn’t bother.

noblehunter wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:hmmmm - not sure that's true. It would be very suprising if they did have self destruct mechanisms... Murphy etc

They would have measures to scuttle the ship. Triggering those mechanisms while the fusion reactors are running might cause things to go boom even if they are intended to slag the fancy tech bits after everyone evacuates.

A scuttling charge seems likely, or perhaps a warhead detonated inside the magazine or a fusion reactor whose containment system decided to take the rest of the day off.

That last one seems most likely to me.

cthia wrote:I also need a refresher on how Theisman was ultimately able to spirit a pulser into his presence. I think the security system was compromised from the attacks, but the system could have been compromised by someone sooner, with the skills of a Foraker.

Once Theisman was able to pick up the threads McQueen had left - and the military forces around Haven were incentivised to assist before Saint Just purged them - Theisman was able to take an assault shuttle full of armored marines and make an assault drop on the highly secure tower Saint Just was in.

So you could said the security system was compromised, but what was mostly compromised was the military defenders. In US terms it's not up to the Secret Service to keep military assaults away from the White House -- if the military forces around DC don't defend the general area then the best security system in the world isn't going to hold off a determined military assault.

But attempting to do that before the people controlling the fleet, forts, and the military air defenses around Nouveau Paris cooperate? Well if Theisman had tried that assault then, that without their support, he'd have made a short and pretty fireball in the skies over the capital and utterly failed to remove Saint Just.

cthia wrote:I can't help but feel Beth is secretly worried deep down inside about the lasting stability of the restored Republic. What will happen to it after the changing of the guard? After Pritchard is replaced with a fair election, how is the course of the current government maintained with so many Saint-Just style of sympathizers waiting in the wings? Trust me, I've personally been a part of much more surprising elections.

How is Beth to know that the leopard isn't really a chameleon waiting to change its colors again? With so much shared tech it could prove fatally difficult for the Star Empire this time around trying to recover from a blow like that. And even more difficult for Beth and her power base to bounce back from being so wrong.

How is Haven to know that Manticore won't do the same? The books like to explain away Manticore's faults-- from HotQ on, like when Courvosier was musing about Honor being the "real" Manticore-- and describe High Ridge et al as aberrations. But he didn't get his position of power in a vacuum, no matter how he kept it. The High Ridge government reflects deep-seated views in the SKM that go all the way back to OBS.

Haven just has to trust that another corrupt, xenophobic regime like the High Ridge government-- or even just one that hates Haven for perfectly logical reasons like QEIII's without her eventual revelations-- won't disrupt their new alliance. They have to trust that Roger, and whoever follows him, and whoever follows *that* person, won't turn on them.

In short, Manticore has the same reasons to trust Haven long-term as Haven does to trust them: they don't. It's a leap of faith, and a commitment to peace. That's all that ever stands between any alliance and dissolution.

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I'm so excited to be enough over the flu to think again!

roseandheather wrote:Hello all, I hate exams, I have not had time to catch up on this (rapidly multiplying) thread, could someone please fill me in as to the salient points of the discussion before my head explodes?

(Hi, Your Celeryness. I see you posting in here. Remember me? )

From what I have been able to see in my rapid race through these posts, I have this to say:

1. Elizabeth is not telepathic and had no way of knowing why Theisman shot Saint-Just. Her conclusions were entirely understandable, even while they were also wrong.

2. I love Tom Theisman unabashedly.

3. I love Eloise Pritchart unabashedly.

4. I love Elizabeth dearly but dear GOD did she need a whack or three with a Character Development Stick where Haven is concerned.

5. I'd have been suspicious of Tom's motives too in her position.

6. ::cries forever because Haven-related Emotions::

Hi, Rose! Spark Notes edition:

-Whether, as written, and according to Haven's stated victory condition of "just get a real treaty", Haven might have technically won the second Manticore-Havenite War

-Whether Eloise and Tom choosing to go to war, and the way they did it, might not have ultimately worked in their favor despite the war being a loss militarily

-Short digressions on the PRH and the Dolists under the Legislaturalists

-Short return to the conversation on how culpable Zilwicki and Cachat are, legally and morally, for Green Pines, with side discussion of Terekov's actions and the math of KEWs

-Whether the rest of the Manticoran Alliance should have negotiated with Haven without the SKM, mostly framed around whether it would have been good for the SKM, or for QEIII and the future power of the House of Winton

-Long digressions on Elizabeth and what she knew and didn't know about the restored Republic and when, the impacts of her personal trauma and the domestic situation on her, etc etc, as well as whether she was negligent in her duties to her own people in not sending a treecat to Haven as soon as she feasibly could

-A return to the discussion about Tom Theisman and whether he was guilty of various crimes, but also lots of complaints that he or others didn't commit those crimes soon enough

-Whew! That's a lot.

Good luck on your exams!

NortonIDaughter wrote:Sorry for the multiple posts, but I'm so excited to be enough over the flu to think again!

roseandheather wrote:Hello all, I hate exams, I have not had time to catch up on this (rapidly multiplying) thread, could someone please fill me in as to the salient points of the discussion before my head explodes?

(Hi, Your Celeryness. I see you posting in here. Remember me? )

From what I have been able to see in my rapid race through these posts, I have this to say:

1. Elizabeth is not telepathic and had no way of knowing why Theisman shot Saint-Just. Her conclusions were entirely understandable, even while they were also wrong.

2. I love Tom Theisman unabashedly.

3. I love Eloise Pritchart unabashedly.

4. I love Elizabeth dearly but dear GOD did she need a whack or three with a Character Development Stick where Haven is concerned.

5. I'd have been suspicious of Tom's motives too in her position.

6. ::cries forever because Haven-related Emotions::

Hi, Rose! Spark Notes edition:

-Whether, as written, and according to Haven's stated victory condition of "just get a real treaty", Haven might have technically won the second Manticore-Havenite War

-Whether Eloise and Tom choosing to go to war, and the way they did it, might not have ultimately worked in their favor despite the war being a loss militarily

-Short digressions on the PRH and the Dolists under the Legislaturalists

-Short return to the conversation on how culpable Zilwicki and Cachat are, legally and morally, for Green Pines, with side discussion of Terekov's actions and the math of KEWs

-Whether the rest of the Manticoran Alliance should have negotiated with Haven without the SKM, mostly framed around whether it would have been good for the SKM, or for QEIII and the future power of the House of Winton

-Long digressions on Elizabeth and what she knew and didn't know about the restored Republic and when, the impacts of her personal trauma and the domestic situation on her, etc etc, as well as whether she was negligent in her duties to her own people in not sending a treecat to Haven as soon as she feasibly could

-A return to the discussion about Tom Theisman and whether he was guilty of various crimes, but also lots of complaints that he or others didn't commit those crimes soon enough

-Whew! That's a lot.

Good luck on your exams!

Elizabeth did have good reasons not to trust the restored republic. You might recall that the republic was the entity that killed her father. And that WAS clearly murder.

There was only a limited amount of news coming out of Haven...it's a war. Right now, the US and allies essentially allow a free flow of news even while fighting even when it damages what the leaders consider the national interest. That does not seem to happen as much in some Honorverse entities.

There are times when regicide is justified. For example, von Stauffenberg's attempted assassination of Hitler. Or Theisman killed Saint-Juste. Killing Elizabeth's dad doesn't qualify.

As for negligence in not sending a treecat to Haven, there was limited communication between treecats and humans until recently. And "who" should she send? A cat right out of the forest or one attached to a human?

There are people who seem naturally to want to criticize the good guys. Wow! Prichart and Theismas are great. But she was a terrorist and he basically just an admiral until the restoration.

And remember that the Havenites KNEW about the early assassinations. And they were getting bad info about her. I recall long diatribes against Elizabeth and discussions of her mental health, all of which suddenly became ridiculous.

Elizabeth did have good reasons not to trust the restored republic. You might recall that the republic was the entity that killed her father.

Emphasis mine.

The restored republic had not a single thing to do with her father's assassination. I can understand her emotionally lumping all the different Havenite regimes together. However, as her handling of the Stein funeral and eventual anger at Erewhon demonstrates, she certainly expects other nations to cut *her* slack and separate the current regime (ie High Ridge) from her rule/ the SKM at large. Her approach to Benjamin Mayhew and the rest of the Manticoran Alliance during that period is predicated on that same separation-- don't blame me for my government! Just hold on until we get rid of them!

She's capable of judging different governments by their own actions. It's part of her job. For the sake of her own people, she needed to judge the restored republic on its own merits to accurately assess what they would do and decide how she would deal with them. She didn't, and it came back to bite her. And while Eloise (and to a lesser extent Tom Theisman) are totally, completely at fault for starting the second war, they had to be actively deceived to do it. The MAlign's plan to blow the summit just relied on Elizabeth to be herself, which is why she come in for so much grief. The conversations about her would be much different if we were discussing her handling of the Solarian League, or the San Martin annexation, or the declaration of war/ Young duel debacle. Or, quite frankly, her handling of the people who did the actual murdering of her father. But "remember that one time a character we all like got everything right and it was awesome" makes for short comment threads.

A scuttling charge seems likely, or perhaps a warhead detonated inside the magazine or a fusion reactor whose containment system decided to take the rest of the day off.

That last one seems most likely to me.

I don't think the description was the same, but wouldn't it be poetic as hell if she'd managed to bring up wedges in the boat bays?

NortonIDaughter wrote:

Elizabeth did have good reasons not to trust the restored republic. You might recall that the republic was the entity that killed her father.

Emphasis mine.

The restored republic had not a single thing to do with her father's assassination. I can understand her emotionally lumping all the different Havenite regimes together. However, as her handling of the Stein funeral and eventual anger at Erewhon demonstrates, she certainly expects other nations to cut *her* slack and separate the current regime (ie High Ridge) from her rule/ the SKM at large. Her approach to Benjamin Mayhew and the rest of the Manticoran Alliance during that period is predicated on that same separation-- don't blame me for my government! Just hold on until we get rid of them!

She's capable of judging different governments by their own actions. It's part of her job. For the sake of her own people, she needed to judge the restored republic on its own merits to accurately assess what they would do and decide how she would deal with them. She didn't, and it came back to bite her. And while Eloise (and to a lesser extent Tom Theisman) are totally, completely at fault for starting the second war, they had to be actively deceived to do it. The MAlign's plan to blow the summit just relied on Elizabeth to be herself, which is why she come in for so much grief. The conversations about her would be much different if we were discussing her handling of the Solarian League, or the San Martin annexation, or the declaration of war/ Young duel debacle. Or, quite frankly, her handling of the people who did the actual murdering of her father. But "remember that one time a character we all like got everything right and it was awesome" makes for short comment threads.

A scuttling charge seems likely, or perhaps a warhead detonated inside the magazine or a fusion reactor whose containment system decided to take the rest of the day off.

That last one seems most likely to me.

I don't think the description was the same, but wouldn't it be poetic as hell if she'd managed to bring up wedges in the boat bays?

Do I have to note that the NEW government played games over diplomatic correspondence and began the war again with no warning?

It reminds me of a professor I knew who blamed only the US for the start of WWII. Nothing the US did was right and it was only to be expected that the Japanese attacked and so forth...

The NEW government had its own flaws. And, yes, this is a new government but it went out of its way to claim it RESTORED an old one that had bad memories for her. And then it misbehaved.

Granted, people in her government also were at fault, but the fiddling of correspondence was bad and the attack which came close to devastating her nation had to really upset her.

Note that the Lords gave up a huge amount of power because of THEIR misbehavior.

ldwechsler wrote:Do I have to note that the NEW government played games over diplomatic correspondence and began the war again with no warning?

No, you don't, because I'm talking about the interbellum period when none of that had happened yet. In terms of sending a treecat to Haven, to judge the restored republic, that's the only time she could have that would make any sense. Of course she wouldn't do it after Thunderbolt! Do I think she should have followed through on the summit, if only to screw Pritchart *and* get as much treecat-provided intel as possible? Yes. But those are two separate issues.

Are you, in fact, arguing that she should judge people by the actions of others? I doubt it. You can argue that it was unsafe for her to send someone. You can argue (as RFC did) that the evidence I listed for their change of character was insufficient to her. You can argue (again, as RFC did) that the non-war-related reasons I listed for needing to know the truth about Haven's new government were not compelling enough to send anyone. You can argue that it wouldn't have changed anything at all. But in my view, no matter her personal feelings or the outcome, it was her duty to try to get all the information she could, and she failed to do so.

Again, we don't have threads about awesome people being awesome, or about villains being villainous, because those things don't need to be stated. RFC's favorite bit of patter about Honor at signings is the "competent mistakes" bit for a reason-- because the temptations, trials, failures, and triumphs over self are where the real meat of the story lies.

It's a given that Eloise and Tom started, and were responsible for, the second war. It's a given that they wouldn't have done it without Giancola's deceptions. In a thread that I started in order to look at the outcome of the war in a sidewise and specifically pro-Haven way, it's inevitable that looking at the secondary causes, like the SKM's failures, is going to happen. It's unfortunate that Elizabeth is such a hot-button issue that she keeps coming up-- and I am definitely a part of the problem here, since I can never seem to refuse the bait!