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The Tellerman wave

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The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:00 am

cthia
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Beware the Wiki

The Tellerman wave
Everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask
The Tellerman wave was a natural phenomenon near the Basilisk System that was among the most powerful gravity waves ever charted. It was associated with the "Roaring Deeps". Its direction, from the perspective of Basilisk, was directly towards the Republic of Haven. They were considered a potentially dangerous navigational hazard. Some adventurous starship captains, however, used the wave to go faster.
In 1900 PD, PMSS Sirius attempted to reach the Tellerman wave to get to the Havenite fleet faster, but was intercepted by HMS Fearless. (HH1)


Bases are important pieces of real estate. Some are important because of location to the enemy. Some are important because of natural resources. The Basilisk System has a natural phenomena called the Tellerman wave which I thought was going to be an asset in the fight against the Peeps. I was surprised that the Peeps were planning to use the wave for its own purposes against the Manties. The drunken Wiki states that the Tellerman wave is located near the Basilisk System. Can the wave be entered anywhere along the route from Basilisk to Haven? Or is the only entry point near Basilisk? If the only entry point is near Basilisk, then surely common access routes can be restricted to enemies, now that Basilisk is "on the map."

.
Last edited by cthia on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:10 am

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Vince's morsel is found here. Another question. Before hitting the Tellerman wave, does a ship have to drop out of hyper?

cthia wrote:One other question.

When a ship is running for the hyper limit, does it not have to severely reduce speed making it more vulnerable to missile fire? And can sails be deployed in advance of reaching the limit? Or is it hindered, like deploying a ragtop is speed limited?

Would this decrease in speed have been an opportune time for Fearless to destroy Coglin's ship, or would the size of the Q-ship have taken too much time to destroy even practically sitting still?

I was thinking, since the Tellerman Wave is so dangerous, that a lot has to go on on a ship to prepare for hyper, during which time she's very vulnerable.

In my head, I can't shake the image during those desperate hyper moments...

"Helm! Hurry up and hyper. Go!!!"

Vince wrote:If Sirius had not come back at Fearless, crossed the hyper limit, and translated to the alpha band, she still would have been under impeller drive.

The only time you rig Warshawski sails prior to translating to hyper-space from normal space is when the volume of normal space you are in directly corresponds to a volume of hyper-space in the alpha band that is occupied by a gravity wave, or if you are approaching a wormhole terminus prior to making transit.

The Tellerman wave does not encompass the entire Basilisk system:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 27 wrote:"We'll be going in pursuit of Sirius, Mr. McKeon. It's imperative that we stop her from leaving the system. What's her current heading?"
"She's steadied down on two-seven-four by zero-niner-three true from the primary, Captain," Lieutenant Brigham's crisp voice replied for the exec.
"What's out there, Mercedes?"
"At her current heading and acceleration she'll hit the hyper wall about one light-minute this side of the Tellerman wave, Captain," Brigham said after a moment, and Honor swallowed a silent curse. She'd been afraid of something like that.

The Tellerman wave is one full light minute away from the hyper limit. It is not mentioned whether that light minute is measured in normal space or hyper-space. Worst case scenario for Fearless is it is measured in normal space, which would put the edge of the Tellerman wave approximately 0.968 light seconds from the hyper limit in the alpha band.

First Sirius has to get into hyper-space, then Sirius has to reach the Tellerman wave, because the gravity wave isn't that close to the hyper limit:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 30 wrote:Fearless was out-gunned by a factor of ten, whether Harrington knew it or not, but RMN cruisers were tougher than the numbers might suggest. If he turned on her, she would not only have the higher base velocity as they closed, but her higher acceleration and lower mass would make her far more maneuverable than Sirius in close combat. The way she'd taken out the courier boat's drive told him Harrington was no shiphandler to take lightly, and if his sidewalls were tougher than hers, her main impeller bands were just as impenetrable as his own. If he got drawn into a close-range dogfight against a more agile opponent, she might just get lucky and score a hit or two in the right place before she died. If she crippled his Warshawski sails, for example, it wouldn't even matter whether or not he could get into hyper. He'd get home eventually, no doubt, but he could never reach the rendezvous in time to stop the task force. Not under impeller drive alone, and especially not when he'd have to detour around the Tellerman rather than using it.

***Snip***

Without the alpha node, Fearless couldn't reconfigure her forward impellers for Warshawski sail. If Sirius broke through into hyper-space and reached the Tellerman, she would run away from Fearless at over ten times the cruiser's maximum acceleration . . . and Honor couldn't follow her into the wave on impellers alone, anyway.

And Sirius could potentially get into hyper and get home eventually using the impeller drive (instead the of Warshawski sails) without being immediately destroyed, simply by detouring around the gravity wave. Which would not be an option if Basilisk lies directly in the Tellerman wave.

An example of ships in normal space that have lost an alpha node and the star system the are in lies directly in a gravity wave:
Ashes of Victory, Chapter 21 wrote:Diamato remembered the unending succession of disasters, the helplessness with which he had watched other battleships being clawed down, blown apart by those incredible LACs' impossible grasers or—possibly even worse—fired into just until they lost an alpha node or two. With even one alpha node down, it was impossible to generate a Warshawski sail, and Hancock lay directly in the path of a grav wave. Which meant no one without Warshawski sails could maneuver in hyper at all . . . and that, in turn, meant there would be no escape from the vengefully pursuing Manty superdreadnoughts of the system's inner picket. The SDs could cross the hyper wall and maneuver freely, which meant they would run the battleships down with absurd ease no matter what normal-space velocity they might have attained, and once a true ship of the wall brought a mere battleship to action, there could be only one outcome.

The above quote understates the difficulty for a ship in normal space wanting to translate to hyper-space without Warshawski sail capability if the star system it is in lies directly in a gravity wave. If it attempts to do so, it is immediately destroyed.

Hyper translation

Does the transition have to be made under impeller drive or Warshawski sail, or either?

Outside a grav wave's area of influence, you do not necessarily have to be underway to make a hyper transit; it's just a little safer because the forward movement gives you more dimensional stability when you crack the wall. If, however, you are making transit into a grav wave, you must have rigged at least one set of Warshawski sails, or grav shear will destroy your vessel as you enter the grav wave's area of influence.

Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis in all quotes from books and the reference pearl.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:37 am

cthia
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Beware Wiki

It is interesting to consider basic wave mechanics projected onto Honorverse physics.

Do the different bands correspond to positions on the crests and troughs of waves?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:25 am

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cthia wrote: Can the wave be entered anywhere along the route from Basilisk to Haven? Or is the only entry point near Basilisk? If the only entry point is near Basilisk, then surely common access routes can be restricted to enemies, now that Basilisk is "on the map."

Yes, you can enter or leave waves in the middle of them. Your vector and angle of entry can make it ticklish but it's pretty routine.

One example was Captain Bachfich following the Havenite destroyer it was following in WoH. Both left the wave on their way to where Second Fleet was waiting.

cthia wrote:Another question. Before hitting the Tellerman wave, does a ship have to drop out of hyper?

The opposite. With the exception of wormhole junctions, grav waves exist only in hyper (that we've seen so far at least).
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by Theemile   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:26 am

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cthia wrote:Beware the Wiki

The Tellerman wave
Everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask
The Tellerman wave was a natural phenomenon near the Basilisk System that was among the most powerful gravity waves ever charted. It was associated with the "Roaring Deeps". Its direction, from the perspective of Basilisk, was directly towards the Republic of Haven. They were considered a potentially dangerous navigational hazard. Some adventurous starship captains, however, used the wave to go faster.
In 1900 PD, PMSS Sirius attempted to reach the Tellerman wave to get to the Havenite fleet faster, but was intercepted by HMS Fearless. (HH1)


Bases are important pieces of real estate. Some are important because of location to the enemy. Some are important because of natural resources. The Basilisk System has a natural phenomena called the Tellerman wave which I thought was going to be an asset in the fight against the Peeps. I was surprised that the Peeps were planning to use the wave for its own purposes against the Manties. The drunken Wiki states that the Tellerman wave is located near the Basilisk System. Can the wave be entered anywhere along the route from Basilisk to Haven? Or is the only entry point near Basilisk? If the only entry point is near Basilisk, then surely common access routes can be restricted to enemies, now that Basilisk is "on the map."

.


Grav waves can be entered at roughly any point along their length that does not contain a grav eddy which would hinder motion (and survival). You can cross into them from normal hyper or translate up to or down into one. I believe some cross multiple hyper bands. Some have a flow which limits (or hinders) travel in a certain direction. Some are narrow, others light year across, limiting hyper options for stars enveloped in them.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:Beware the Wiki

The Tellerman wave
Everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask
The Tellerman wave was a natural phenomenon near the Basilisk System that was among the most powerful gravity waves ever charted. It was associated with the "Roaring Deeps". Its direction, from the perspective of Basilisk, was directly towards the Republic of Haven. They were considered a potentially dangerous navigational hazard. Some adventurous starship captains, however, used the wave to go faster.
In 1900 PD, PMSS Sirius attempted to reach the Tellerman wave to get to the Havenite fleet faster, but was intercepted by HMS Fearless. (HH1)


Bases are important pieces of real estate. Some are important because of location to the enemy. Some are important because of natural resources. The Basilisk System has a natural phenomena called the Tellerman wave which I thought was going to be an asset in the fight against the Peeps. I was surprised that the Peeps were planning to use the wave for its own purposes against the Manties. The drunken Wiki states that the Tellerman wave is located near the Basilisk System. Can the wave be entered anywhere along the route from Basilisk to Haven? Or is the only entry point near Basilisk? If the only entry point is near Basilisk, then surely common access routes can be restricted to enemies, now that Basilisk is "on the map."

.


Theemile wrote:Grav waves can be entered at roughly any point along their length that does not contain a grav eddy which would hinder motion (and survival). You can cross into them from normal hyper or translate up to or down into one. I believe some cross multiple hyper bands. Some have a flow which limits (or hinders) travel in a certain direction. Some are narrow, others light year across, limiting hyper options for stars enveloped in them.

Thanks. My question is based on the notion that Sirius could have entered hyper a half light minute before hitting the Tellerman wave. Sirius would have wanted to get into hyper asap if Honor had still been on her ass launching missiles. I was wondering if she would have had to drop back out of hyper before entering the wave, which seemed silly and an awful waste of time. But since the Tellerman wave is so dangerous, I don't know the extent of the unusual precautions that are needed.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:38 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:Beware the Wiki

The Tellerman wave
Everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask
The Tellerman wave was a natural phenomenon near the Basilisk System that was among the most powerful gravity waves ever charted. It was associated with the "Roaring Deeps". Its direction, from the perspective of Basilisk, was directly towards the Republic of Haven. They were considered a potentially dangerous navigational hazard. Some adventurous starship captains, however, used the wave to go faster.
In 1900 PD, PMSS Sirius attempted to reach the Tellerman wave to get to the Havenite fleet faster, but was intercepted by HMS Fearless. (HH1)


Bases are important pieces of real estate. Some are important because of location to the enemy. Some are important because of natural resources. The Basilisk System has a natural phenomena called the Tellerman wave which I thought was going to be an asset in the fight against the Peeps. I was surprised that the Peeps were planning to use the wave for its own purposes against the Manties. The drunken Wiki states that the Tellerman wave is located near the Basilisk System. Can the wave be entered anywhere along the route from Basilisk to Haven? Or is the only entry point near Basilisk? If the only entry point is near Basilisk, then surely common access routes can be restricted to enemies, now that Basilisk is "on the map."

.
Theemile wrote:Grav waves can be entered at roughly any point along their length that does not contain a grav eddy which would hinder motion (and survival). You can cross into them from normal hyper or translate up to or down into one. I believe some cross multiple hyper bands. Some have a flow which limits (or hinders) travel in a certain direction. Some are narrow, others light year across, limiting hyper options for stars enveloped in them.

cthia wrote:Thanks. My question is based on the notion that Sirius could have entered hyper a half light minute before hitting the Tellerman wave. Sirius would have wanted to get into hyper asap if Honor had still been on her ass launching missiles. I was wondering if she would have had to drop back out of hyper before entering the wave, which seemed silly and an awful waste of time. But since the Tellerman wave is so dangerous, I don't know the extent of the unusual precautions that are needed.

And of course, entering hyper then quickly dropping back out of hyper reminds me of The Picard Maneuver.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:08 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Grav waves can be entered at roughly any point along their length that does not contain a grav eddy which would hinder motion (and survival). You can cross into them from normal hyper or translate up to or down into one. I believe some cross multiple hyper bands. Some have a flow which limits (or hinders) travel in a certain direction. Some are narrow, others light year across, limiting hyper options for stars enveloped in them.

One of the background articles (don't remember offhand if it was in MtH, SVW, or IFF) states that the early sails had issues sailing "up wind" and ships had to tack back and forth to move that way, like Earth sailing ships would.

Later on the Warshaski sails were improved so they can run at a 'negative grab factor' and accelerate the ship just as well "up wind" as down; though with marginal increases in node wear and risk of breakdown.
cthia wrote:And of course, entering hyper then quickly dropping back out of hyper reminds me of The Picard Maneuver.
Though that doesn't work so well in the Honorverse where
a) every ship has FTL sensors and will see the nearby hyper exit
b) the cycle time on the hyper generators means it would be 10 minutes or so before you could leave hyper after entering
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Re: The Tellerman wave
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:20 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Grav waves can be entered at roughly any point along their length that does not contain a grav eddy which would hinder motion (and survival). You can cross into them from normal hyper or translate up to or down into one. I believe some cross multiple hyper bands. Some have a flow which limits (or hinders) travel in a certain direction. Some are narrow, others light year across, limiting hyper options for stars enveloped in them.

One of the background articles (don't remember offhand if it was in MtH, SVW, or IFF) states that the early sails had issues sailing "up wind" and ships had to tack back and forth to move that way, like Earth sailing ships would.

Later on the Warshaski sails were improved so they can run at a 'negative grab factor' and accelerate the ship just as well "up wind" as down; though with marginal increases in node wear and risk of breakdown.
cthia wrote:And of course, entering hyper then quickly dropping back out of hyper reminds me of The Picard Maneuver.
Though that doesn't work so well in the Honorverse where
a) every ship has FTL sensors and will see the nearby hyper exit
b) the cycle time on the hyper generators means it would be 10 minutes or so before you could leave hyper after entering

Indeed, attempting a Picard Maneuver in the Honorverse might actually be fatal. It simply reminded me of it.

I used to Hang Ten and so many elements of hyper reminds me of surfing.

Talk about dangerous waves and the Roaring Deeps, don't even think about it! These are real Tellerman waves. Tell-da-men, noooooooooo!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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