Haven Victorious

Galactic Sapper wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:The use of even "low-grade, civilian" nuclear devices against civilian targets is certainly the "grayest" (to say the least) act we have seen out of the "good guys" in the course of the Honorverse novels. (Had Aivars Terekhov carried through and blown the space stations in Monica without evacuating their civilian personnel first, that one would probably have displaced this one without too much difficulty.) Don't think that Anton Zilwicki doesn't have the occasional nightmare over what actually happened to a park full of kids, either. The other two nuclear charges that they and their seccy allies deployed don't bother him or Victor very much, to be honest, but the park does.

I would argue that Terekhov's destruction of the building in Mobius had a much higher body count that Green Pines and was totally unjustifiable as a military target. Under the Edict an attacker is allowed to use otherwise-banned weapons on military targets that might include civilian casualties if the planet does not surrender with hostile warships in orbit, but striking the civilian government did not in any way affect how badly the intervention battalions were about to be massacred or decrease the number of casualties the marines would take in doing so.

As we saw on Mesa, obliterating a modern structure to the degree which he did means an awful lot of civilian casualties in and around buildings nearby, as well as the thousands of government employees who were in the building but were in no way involved in the atrocities being committed by Yucel's troops.

That attack was pure "judge, jury, and executioner" for Yucel and Lombroso - fair enough, as far as they deserved - but also for the tens of thousands of people standing nearest them at the time. Anyone in the open within a couple kilometers of the building was likely killed, as well as people in the buildings facing the target.

Never sling shit at an armed man.
Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.


The people who were killed by Tekerov's KE strike might not have been the actual intervention batallions or the political leaders who had requested the intervention batallions, but they were either government bureaucrats or dependants of government bureaucrats who were in favor of employing the intervention battallions because they expected to benefit from the murderous intervention.

So some guilty people who were standing next to the idiots who were slinging shit at an armed man got hamerred along with the shit slingers. Oh Booh Hooh.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Never sling shit at an armed man.
Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.


The people who were killed by Tekerov's KE strike might not have been the actual intervention batallions or the political leaders who had requested the intervention batallions, but they were either government bureaucrats or dependants of government bureaucrats who were in favor of employing the intervention battallions because they expected to benefit from the murderous intervention.

So some guilty people who were standing next to the idiots who were slinging shit at an armed man got hamerred along with the shit slingers. Oh Booh Hooh.

I always felt bad for the video comm specialist who routed the call to Yucel. Poor schmuck was just doing his job for an important person and someone dropped a rock on him.

Theemile wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
Never sling shit at an armed man.
Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.


The people who were killed by Tekerov's KE strike might not have been the actual intervention batallions or the political leaders who had requested the intervention batallions, but they were either government bureaucrats or dependants of government bureaucrats who were in favor of employing the intervention battallions because they expected to benefit from the murderous intervention.

So some guilty people who were standing next to the idiots who were slinging shit at an armed man got hamerred along with the shit slingers. Oh Booh Hooh.

I always felt bad for the video comm specialist who routed the call to Yucel. Poor schmuck was just doing his job for an important person and someone dropped a rock on him.

Yeah, but that poor schmuck supported Yucel's activities. Tacitly or actively, support of things like that will extact a price eventually.

PeterZ wrote:

Theemile wrote:
I always felt bad for the video comm specialist who routed the call to Yucel. Poor schmuck was just doing his job for an important person and someone dropped a rock on him.

Yeah, but that poor schmuck supported Yucel's activities. Tacitly or actively, support of things like that will extact a price eventually.

Sadly, I can see it all now.

"Jim, We're assigning you to Lombardo Towers this week. Our customer - I don't care what you think of them - asked for the best tech in this time of crisis. Don't let it go to you head, but that's you, now that Randy quit. So we'll let the church know we are taking you off their humanitarian aid contract and we'll backfill you with someone else. Now get over to the Tower, they are waiting on you."

on the drive across town

"Hi Honey, I got a promotion today! I'll be working at Lombardo Towers. Yeah, I don't like the thought of working for them either, but the extra pay means we can finally pay off Bobby's dental work. Maybe even put a couple dollars towards that vacation to "DispeyLand" (tm) if this craziness ever settles down. See you tonight!"

Theemile wrote:I always felt bad for the video comm specialist who routed the call to Yucel. Poor schmuck was just doing his job for an important person and someone dropped a rock on him.

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, but that poor schmuck supported Yucel's activities. Tacitly or actively, support of things like that will extact a price eventually.

Theemile wrote:
Sadly, I can see it all now.

"Jim, We're assigning you to Lombardo Towers this week. Our customer - I don't care what you think of them - asked for the best tech in this time of crisis. Don't let it go to you head, but that's you, now that Randy quit. So we'll let the church know we are taking you off their humanitarian aid contract and we'll backfill you with someone else. Now get over to the Tower, they are waiting on you."

on the drive across town

"Hi Honey, I got a promotion today! I'll be working at Lombardo Towers. Yeah, I don't like the thought of working for them either, but the extra pay means we can finally pay off Bobby's dental work. Maybe even put a couple dollars towards that vacation to "DispeyLand" (tm) if this craziness ever settles down. See you tonight!"

Yucel was part of the Gendarmerie in Verge. Supporting Yucel in her brutality against the resident of the Verge is stock and trade for the gendarms, either the field officers or the support staff at HQ.

Hiring out to such goons is a choice where the expectations are pretty obvious. I can't feel that bad about the who bought it in that Tower. Recall that all the locals were moved out to make room for Yucel's staff and the gendarms. Anyone that was in that tower was an active supporter of that occupation force.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Never sling shit at an armed man.
Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.


The people who were killed by Tekerov's KE strike might not have been the actual intervention batallions or the political leaders who had requested the intervention batallions, but they were either government bureaucrats or dependants of government bureaucrats who were in favor of employing the intervention battallions because they expected to benefit from the murderous intervention.

So some guilty people who were standing next to the idiots who were slinging shit at an armed man got hamerred along with the shit slingers. Oh Booh Hooh.

That's dangerously close to a "no such thing as a civilian" mentality.

"That guy might not be the Dear Leader, but he's a traffic cop under the Dear Leader's regime. Eh, close enough. May as well vaporize him, his wife, and all three of his little kids."

Or to make the historical reference, the poor bastard delivering mail in 1943 Germany. Meh, close enough. May as well firebomb his ass, too.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Never sling shit at an armed man.
Never stand next to someone who is slinging shit at an armed man.

The people who were killed by Tekerov's KE strike might not have been the actual intervention batallions or the political leaders who had requested the intervention batallions, but they were either government bureaucrats or dependants of government bureaucrats who were in favor of employing the intervention battallions because they expected to benefit from the murderous intervention.

So some guilty people who were standing next to the idiots who were slinging shit at an armed man got hamerred along with the shit slingers. Oh Booh Hooh.

Galactic Sapper wrote:That's dangerously close to a "no such thing as a civilian" mentality.

"That guy might not be the Dear Leader, but he's a traffic cop under the Dear Leader's regime. Eh, close enough. May as well vaporize him, his wife, and all three of his little kids."

Or to make the historical reference, the poor bastard delivering mail in 1943 Germany. Meh, close enough. May as well firebomb his ass, too.

If KZT is correct in what he said (shown below), then the actual response was a bit more nuanced than TFLYTSNBN made it seem. But basically when you hit a military installation in the midst of a city, then there might be some spill over. Perhaps not everyone in the installation deserved to die; but if the only option available is a hammer, then those guys will get nailed also.
We have talked about "Bomber" Harris elsewhere (also Curtis Lemay) and the difference was that they admitted that they were targeting civilians and wanted to make them suffer.

kzt wrote:Nope. Refusing to surrender when you are unable to defectively resist and only intend to commit mass murder is a total cause for a legitimate use of force. It was fairly small scale and I think was largely confined by the nature of the target construction. The assorted bystanders were unfortunate, but no good wat around that.

Yucel (who was in direct military control of the intervention forces at the direction of the System's "legitimate political leader) told Tekerov (the guy commanding the warship that was NOW in possession of the orbital (and dam near every other in-system extraplanitary object) that she was going to continue doing what she intended- wipe out all the rebels on the planet. She as much as told him she was going to continue and there was nothing (in her opinion) that he could do about it. Clearly she had either no idea or just total contempt for Manticorian ability.

Just exactly what were Terkerov's options to stop her from carrying out the killings? He could send Marines to attempt to capture her alive...don't think that would have gone well (would have lost Marines and most probably Yucel would have died in the attempt.
How do you stop a snake that is about to strike?, Cutting off it's head springs to mind.
He hit the existing military command location and the ranking active military commander in the most expeditious manner. Killed Yucel, also the politician who both called her in and turned her loose knowing the tactics she was going to use. Also apparently (and by design) cut off military communications at the highest level (physically took out the major command communications node along with Yucel) at the same time he delivered the rescue strike at the stadium -which worked out rather well.
He gave her the oppertunity to surrender and desist in the roundup and execution of hostages. She had already told him she would execute the hostages.
Tekerov made his demands, she clearly rejected them and told him she would keep doing what she was doing.
Yeah, the "support" of naval support by Manticore had been a lie since it came from Firebrand but it was also instigated by part of OFS. Manticore felt it had to honor such pledges -at the same time as investigating them to keep from being painted as acting in bad faith- and so gave Tekerov orders to support the rebels.
So,
No EE violation here......direct (and given what the OFS Intervention troops supported by SLN units) much smaller device yeald KEW device used on a legitimate MILITARY TARGET.

tlb wrote:If KZT is correct in what he said (shown below), then the actual response was a bit more nuanced than TFLYTSNBN made it seem. But basically when you hit a military installation in the midst of a city, then there might be some spill over. Perhaps not everyone in the installation deserved to die; but if the only option available is a hammer, then those guys will get nailed also.
We have talked about "Bomber" Harris elsewhere (also Curtis Lemay) and the difference was that they admitted that they were targeting civilians and wanted to make them suffer.

kzt wrote:Nope. Refusing to surrender when you are unable to defectively resist and only intend to commit mass murder is a total cause for a legitimate use of force. It was fairly small scale and I think was largely confined by the nature of the target construction. The assorted bystanders were unfortunate, but no good wat around that.

Only if by "largely confined by the nature of the target structure" he really meant "obliterate(d) the Presidential Palace and everything else (including the residential towers in which the System Unity and Progress Party's leadership and the majority of the transtellars' off-world personnel had been quartered) in a three block radius."

The point isn't that civilians getting caught in a strike on a military target is an EE violation, it's that the tower wasn't a necessary military target. Even refusal to surrender does not permit an attacker to bombard the planet at will; they still require military necessity to hit a target which would result in mass civilian casualties and the Lombardo Arms simply did not qualify for that. Terekhov could have sent down the Marines while still on the comm with Yucel, and had her troops neutralized before she could order a massacre. As it was the two events were separated only by a few seconds. And without her troops, Yucel was hardly a military threat.

I get that Terekhov held off ordering the Marines in to potentially save lives in the intervention battalions, but the kinetic strike took more civilian lives than the plan would have saved among the troops who were actually committing the atrocities. And those troops were eventually massacred anyway.

Brigade XO wrote:Just exactly what were Terkerov's options to stop her from carrying out the killings?

The marines he ordered in at the same time he ordered the kinetic strike killed all but a handful of the Gendarms within seconds of the kinetic strike hitting. The two events were nearly simultaneous, and the marine attack could have gone in without the kinetic strike at all.

Undoubtedly Yucel would have still tried to resist after most of her troops were massacred, but all she had was the comm section and (probably) a security detachment in the building itself. Without the troops (mostly dead at this point), she lacked the ability to do anything to the prisoners or really anyone outside the building. Sure she could have held the building's occupants hostage, but Terekhov clearly didn't think those lives were worth saving.

At that point, Terekhov could have done what the Mesans should have done - not a single massive kinetic strike, but multiple smaller strikes in rapid succession. The strike package had six penetrators to use; six strikes in the 3-5 kt range hitting the building dead center on the roof at 10-20 second intervals would crater the roof then progressively blast further and further down the interior of the tower. By the sixth blast the building would be pretty well gutted but the exterior shell would have contained most of the explosions. Some civilians in the lower floors might even have survived; certainly nearly all of the people in the three block radius around the building would have.