Snippet #13

One should recall that the typical tactic for PTs was a night attack, coasting in quietly under low power as close as possible before the target detected them. Speed was more for escaping afterward, or for closing to launch range if detected prematurely.

PeterZ wrote:Those limitations go both ways, Dilandu. TBs will only be ble to see so far as the height of their mast allows. Estimating vectors of their targets well enough to accurately target them with even an operable Long Lance will decrease effective ranges drastically. Drastically enough that Rusdo-Japanese war level fire control guided by an aeronought in a balloon will still force a TB to cross a killing ground before they achieve the effective range of any torpedo.

More than anything that's why TBs, even turbine driven steamers, are not the way to go. PT boats powered by diesels are. No telling smoke plumes to give them away at a distance. PT boats have a shot at getting in close enough to effectively target battle wagons.

Hi jontom,

Kudos for some excellent points!

It will be very curious how torpedoes, if they are developed on Safehold, come to be outside the EoC.

The US Howell type required high speed steam turbines to spin up the gyroscope, which are most likely to be invented in Charis, while Whiteheads took over 25 years before minimal performance was achieved, ie 800 yards at 18 kts, if you consider that acceptable.

More like suicidal if you ask me.

Until diesel comes along, any steam TB's will be toast.

What RFC chooses to conjure up will be fun to read, but so far the 15" coast defense rockets are far more effective.

Interesting times indeed.

L


[quote="jontom"]One should recall that the typical tactic for PTs was a night attack, coasting in quietly under low power as close as possible before the target detected them. Speed was more for escaping afterward, or for closing to launch range if detected prematurely.

[quote="PeterZ"]
Those limitations go both ways, Dilandu. TBs will only be ble to see so far as the height of their mast allows. Estimating vectors of their targets well enough to accurately target them with even an operable Long Lance will decrease effective ranges drastically. Drastically enough that Rusdo-Japanese war level fire control guided by an aeronought in a balloon will still force a TB to cross a killing ground before they achieve the effective range of any torpedo.

More than anything that's why TBs, even turbine driven steamers, are not the way to go. PT boats powered by diesels are. No telling smoke plumes to give them away at a distance. PT boats have a shot at getting in close enough to effectively target battle wagons.[/quote][/quote]

Dilandu wrote:If the enemy have WW2-grade torpedoes and you have early XX-century fire control? It would be the excellent example of "our defensive fire is useless, but since it keep our sailors from panicking..."

...

It could - on rather primitive level. Russo-Japanese War era, roughly. Even Deryer table without electric data transmission for its output would be severely handicapped.

You assume that you can map directly from historical performance to that of modern performance using the same technology. Voice tubes can convey data between systems. Once transmitted the data can be entered into other mechanical computers can compute the correct training and elevation for that gun/turret. Gyros that are required for torpedoes to work also would be used for gunnery.

Training (dotters), naval tactics, gunnery TTPs all improved to greatly increase the effectiveness of naval gunnery separate from technological advancement. From 1903 to 1906 the USN improved hit percentages from 40% to 77% and improved the ROF heavy guns through improved TTPs and gunnery training.

The output may be degraded without electric data transmission but using the same level of technology but with improved, training, TTPs and equipment design a navy from WWII would have been far more effective than it was during the Russo-Japanese war era.

So the probability that steam powered torpedo boats surviving to engagement range seems unlikely in the face of QF guns mounted on torpedo boat destroyers where local control is adequate for the expected engagement ranges between lighter units.

Underlying this entire sub thread of torpedoes is one question.

What would foster technological innovation better?

I suspect that Dohlar will see steam turbines driving air compressors which will power tools used in an assembly line and adopt it quick as a wink. Once they use steam turbines commercially, Dohlaran R&D will find uses for turbines. I truly don't see any other scenario developing. The big question is whether Charis lets Dohlar use the design. I suspect that they will enforce the patent and Duke Delthak will charge some acceptable fee. I further suspect that the turbine patent will not be very well worded. Dohlar will be able to use the concept if they make enough changes. Designing a steam turbine small enough to fit into a torpedo would qualify as a new patentable design.

Once the limits and value of patents are well understood, every nation on earth will have patent experts perusing the Charisian Patent Office's records. There is the one area of the CoGA that will be flourishing- Intendents. Yup, everyone will want their intendents scouring the Proscriptions looking for ways to apply the current patents in novel ways. They will also look for ways not to offend against the Proscriptions, but that will be a necessary side effect.

I wonder now whether the Church of Charis will send out their own evangelists. Those evangelists will be Scheulerite Intendants working with local Intendants to both defend Charisian recognized patents and proselytize the reason why the patent does not offend the proscriptions. Those evangelists will visit shops and manufactories and offer suggestions for improvement and invite local owners to their seminars on how to apply the existing patents to their shops, apply for new patents and how to seek Charisian Patent Office (CPO) help in defending the patents they own.

PeterZ wrote:And both the Mark15 and Long Lance burned methanol for propulsion. The Mark 15 used the combustion with compressed air to drive a steam turbine. The Long Lance used compressed oxygen and achieved a much longer range. IIRC about 40 km. So, no electricity to propel it either.

That's just compressed air as an oxidizer, not using compressed air to power a torpedo. And note that the Long Lance used compressed oxygen, not compressed air.

Vinea wrote:Step 3 is to build the fleet with which to kick Gbaba ass. Preferably with Dahak planetoids.

My fear is that rfc will run out of steam before Step 3...and cover that in a short epilogue.

That would make me a sad panda. Even sadder is not even getting the epilogue...

I don't see step 3 being much of a story. They'll develop the tech that can kick Gbaba ass with ease, then go kick it. It won't be anything like a fair fight, thus not an interesting story. It's not like the Honorverse where there's a fifth column problem.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:And both the Mark15 and Long Lance burned methanol for propulsion. The Mark 15 used the combustion with compressed air to drive a steam turbine. The Long Lance used compressed oxygen and achieved a much longer range. IIRC about 40 km. So, no electricity to propel it either.

That's just compressed air as an oxidizer, not using compressed air to power a torpedo. And note that the Long Lance used compressed oxygen, not compressed air.

Indeed. Compressed air driving pistons only managed 18 mph and 800 yards within 20 years of initial invention. No way a TB can survive a run using one of those.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Vinea wrote:Step 3 is to build the fleet with which to kick Gbaba ass. Preferably with Dahak planetoids.

My fear is that rfc will run out of steam before Step 3...and cover that in a short epilogue.

That would make me a sad panda. Even sadder is not even getting the epilogue...

I don't see step 3 being much of a story. They'll develop the tech that can kick Gbaba ass with ease, then go kick it. It won't be anything like a fair fight, thus not an interesting story. It's not like the Honorverse where there's a fifth column problem.

The interesting part will be WHY the Gbaba act like they do - RFC has indicated that there is a logic to their behaviour (beyond being homicidal maniacs).

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Vinea wrote:Step 3 is to build the fleet with which to kick Gbaba ass. Preferably with Dahak planetoids.

My fear is that rfc will run out of steam before Step 3...and cover that in a short epilogue.

That would make me a sad panda. Even sadder is not even getting the epilogue...

I don't see step 3 being much of a story. They'll develop the tech that can kick Gbaba ass with ease, then go kick it. It won't be anything like a fair fight, thus not an interesting story. It's not like the Honorverse where there's a fifth column problem.

Orthey discover the Gbaba don't believe in pushing new tech warships to the front until the supply of old tech warships is exhausted, and the war is much more even than expected.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:I don't see step 3 being much of a story. They'll develop the tech that can kick Gbaba ass with ease, then go kick it. It won't be anything like a fair fight, thus not an interesting story. It's not like the Honorverse where there's a fifth column problem.

The interesting part will be WHY the Gbaba act like they do - RFC has indicated that there is a logic to their behaviour (beyond being homicidal maniacs).

So the whole situation may turn out to be more interesting than 'Go commit genocide on them as revenge for them trying to do it to us.' After all, unless they have truly prodigious lifespans, which I'm not entirely ruling out, all the Gbabba who actually attacked earth will be long dead by the time a Safehold Grand Fleet goes to off to deal with the problem. Besides, the whole series has strong themes of personal moral responsibility and relationship with God. It would be unlike RFC to simply abandon those for part 3 and turn it into what he sometimes calls 'war porn'.