Snippet #13

P.S. Of course, I really doubt that RFC would do that, but it would be interesting if Merlin plan for Charis actually assumed... to write the Kingdom off. Continue to give them perfected technology, so the other countries would eventually surpass Charis in innovative mindset. To make a demonstration - cruel, but effective - that "supernatural" knowledge, given from "above" could not solve ALL problems. That only the peoples ability to think by themselves, to invent and perfect thing the hard way - not waiting until some "archangel" or "seiji" would give them a perfected solution - could be viable.

Of course, this is highly unlikely But it would be a really interesting plot twist, and would actually made our classical goody-two-shoes hero a lot more complex person.

Dilandu,

The struggle has many levels. The most obvious level is Charis' survival. The second is the spread of technology. Finally is the need to destroy the Gbaba. In order to do the second the first must be secured. In order to do the third, the second has to be secured.

Surviving the jihad required enough cheating to provide a high enough tech differential so that Charisian output using the smaller population base will defeat the output of the rest of Safehold's population. Given the tech level at OAR, they had to cheat to bring about steam before they were destroyed. Recall that they had steam developed before the Sword of Shueler. The Inner Circle hadn't thought they were going to have a mainland ally so soon. They thought they would have to build their army on their own to fight the mainland. They needed steam and they needed a high enough quality steam engine to defeat every other navy on the planet so they could focus their personnel on the army. They had to cheat to get there.

Moving forward everyone of your arguments about cheating with regards to production and technological development is valid. Your arguments regarding cheating with surveillance and communication equipment is so much crap. The old saying that if you aren't cheating with regards to diplomacy or war, you aren't trying hard enough applies. Charis has to survive in order to increase the chances of defeating the Gbaba. This is true because as deeply invested as Merlin has become in Charis, the destruction of Charis may well overwhelm Merlin's personality. Recall that Merlin has never let himself love so deeply because he knew the entire earth would be destroyed before he was much past 30. That sort of defensive mindset is hard to put away and having put it away it is devastating to lose everything that one let in past that defensive shell. By now, Nimue may find herself in a similar circumstance.

So there are important reasons for cheating with regards to using the coms and SNARKS that I fully agree with while not cheating in developing the innovative mindset.

PeterZ wrote:Dilandu,

The struggle has many levels. The most obvious level is Charis' survival. The second is the spread of technology. Finally is the need to destroy the Gbaba. In order to do the second the first must be secured. In order to do the third, the second has to be secured.

Surviving the jihad required enough cheating to provide a high enough tech differential so that Charisian output using the smaller population base will defeat the output of the rest of Safehold's population. Given the tech level at OAR, they had to cheat to bring about steam before they were destroyed. Recall that they had steam developed before the Sword of Shueler. The Inner Circle hadn't thought they were going to have a mainland ally so soon. They thought they would have to build their army on their own to fight the mainland. They needed steam and they needed a high enough quality steam engine to defeat every other navy on the planet so they could focus their personnel on the army. They had to cheat to get there.

Moving forward everyone of your arguments about cheating with regards to production and technological development is valid. Your arguments regarding cheating with surveillance and communication equipment is so much crap. The old saying that if you aren't cheating with regards to diplomacy or war, you aren't trying hard enough applies. Charis has to survive in order to increase the chances of defeating the Gbaba. This is true because as deeply invested as Merlin has become in Charis, the destruction of Charis may well overwhelm Merlin's personality. Recall that Merlin has never let himself love so deeply because he knew the entire earth would be destroyed before he was much past 30. That sort of defensive mindset is hard to put away and having put it away it is devastating to lose everything that one let in past that defensive shell. By now, Nimue may find herself in a similar circumstance.

So there are important reasons for cheating with regards to using the coms and SNARKS that I fully agree with while not cheating in developing the innovative mindset.

I agree with most of the above, but I would add a few things - first while Merlin started the show, it is now the Inner Circle that controls technology etc, which Inner Circle expanded to include a ton of people including lots from the newly subsidiary states of the Empire (Tarot, Corisande, Emerald), not to speak of Merlin's wife or of father Paytyr who belong to the Temple hierarchy by birth, so they can be construed as a nucleus of a future Safehold Federation, rather than a pure Charisian organization.

Second, the so-called innovative mindset depends a lot of internal politics - unless there is war (or a cold war of sufficient intensity), states with autocratic structures (Desnair, S Harchong) will find hard to advance it however much the Inner Circle allows them to steal their tech; after all unless there is the pressure of immediate survival, keeping one's class privileges beats increasing the wealth of all; Siddarmark would have been the best country to industrialize at Charis' pace in many ways, but events decided otherways (the collapse of house Qwentyn economically and the death of Archbishop Zhasyn morally weakened them massively and now the unexpected opportunity to shore up the United Provinces with the Arhmank plan diverts resources that could have used to shore them up if needed).

Anyway, interesting times ahead as the blurb puts it (bold emphasis mine):

"However, even though a provisional veil of peace has fallen over human colonies, the quiet will not last. For Safefold is a broken world, and as international alliances shift and Charis charges on with its precarious mission of global industrialization, the shifting plates of the new world order are bound to clash.

Yet, an uncertain future isn't the only danger Safehold faces. Long-thought buried secrets and prophetic promises come to light, proving time is a merciless warden who never forgets."

Dilandu wrote:Basically, someone should give Merlin a kick, and remind him, that his goal is to promote innovative mindset for all Safehold, not to play with his Charisian puppets in "how I would conquer the world for greater good".

That is NOT Merlin's goal. His goal is to free Safehold from the imposed artificial restraints on technology; convince the population of their real origins, freeing them from Langhorne's lies; re-establish TF level technology; develop more advanced technology that can defeat the Gbaba and build enough of it to go kick their butts. And to do all that as fast as feasible without getting destroyed by any of the forces seeking to prevent it.

As a part of that, he has to promote an innovative mindset all over Safehold at some stage, but it is not at all obvious it is the immediate priority. Ensuring reactionary Safeholders, the thing under the Temple or the Archangel's Return, whatever that might mean, cannot end the process he has begun is considerably more urgent. That may well mean that achieving a tech level which changes the expectations of huge numbers of Safeholders forever, however it is obtained, takes priority.

It is not as if critical thinking is being ignored; in the Royal Academy, in Duke Delthak's works, in the Dohlaran Navy (and now government, no doubt, considering who is running it), in the CoGA's main workshops, at least applied R&D work is being done, beyond what Merlin is handing out. Looks like even S Harchong and Desnair are going to be doing some of it too. The new Charisian Education system, which has been mainly seen in RFC's posts, certainly, is promoting it too. I don't see any of the defeatism and apathetic despondency you imagine Merlin's actions should produce.

Looking at the bigger picture there are other reasons Merlin needs to focus on getting results quickly. Removal of the artificial technology restraints is urgent because, for one thing, every year they are in place thousands upon thousands of people die earlier than they have to and needlessly suffer from perfectly curable diseases. It is a moral affront.

Not just curable diseases, Randomiser, but hand-to-mouth poverty. Has anyone on this forum lived in a third world country and seen cities where open sewers as big as stream course through an otherwise modern city? Where tin roofed shanties sprawl besides modern high rises? Unless you have, the idea of poverty is only a distant theory. The death that comes from not just avoidable disease, but of poverty driven want is truly immoral for those with the capacity to mitigate it.

Notice that every nation can attain geopolitical power by expanding their economy first on Safehold. Technological prowess is secondary to the ability to produce and production depends on people. Yes, technology facilitates production, but the ability of Safeholdian nations to produce useful devices in quantity is more important than the knowledge to make it.

Dilandu wrote:

What I disagree with, is the constant Charisian cheating. Merlin continued to supply them with information even through now it isn't necessary for Charis survival or Merlin's mission. This is counter-productive in post-war conditions. The whole "Charisians would immediately know it and have a working solution" thing is not helping the main goal - moreover, I presented arguments that it actually would damage the "innovation mindset", because perfected, refined Charisian solution would be in stark contrast with honest inventiveness of everyone else.

Basically, someone should give Merlin a kick, and remind him, that his goal is to promote innovative mindset for all Safehold, not to play with his Charisian puppets in "how I would conquer the world for greater good".

No. His goal is to make sure that humans can defeat the Gbaba.

Step 1 is recovery of Terran technology levels in the most efficient manner possible. If world domination is required, so be it. Stopping rapid tech advancement so Safehold and Innovate around 19th and 20th century technology base is pointless and only being done because of rakurai.
Step 2 is exceeding Terran technology levels in order to kick Gbaba ass.
Step 3 is to build the fleet with which to kick Gbaba ass. Preferably with Dahak planetoids.

My fear is that rfc will run out of steam before Step 3...and cover that in a short epilogue.

That would make me a sad panda. Even sadder is not even getting the epilogue...

Dilandu wrote:

Vinea wrote:I don't understand this comment when there are plenty of examples of these in RFC's books.

Examples, yes. But not much use. Of course it's only my IMHO - and I clearly not always right - but for me it seems that RFC tend to underestimate the value of light units less than sea-capable destroyer analogue. I.e. patrol crafts, escort ships, gunboats, ect. Both in Honorverse and in Safehold, warring fleets tended to pump out as much capital ship as possible, and basically do not build anything functionally smaller than light cruiser.

No offense.

Yes, because LACs didn't exist and there wasn't a story arc about the desire to build corvettes and patrol craft vs battlecruisers for the RMN. Oh wait.

The stories talk about pumping out capital ships because at the end of the day the battle line is the difference between naval control and not. Especially for power projection and sea dominance.

At best, and often not even that, you might achieve some level of sea denial with smaller craft.

Dilandu wrote:

PeterZ wrote:And both the Mark15 and Long Lance burned methanol for propulsion. The Mark 15 used the combustion with compressed air to drive a steam turbine. The Long Lance used compressed oxygen and achieved a much longer range. IIRC about 40 km. So, no electricity to propel it either.

Yep. Up until you went into guidance & magnecit fuses, there were little use for electric in torpedoes (with SOME exceptions, generally for submarines).

In Safehold conditions, it could actually led to... interesting results. The torpedo development could quickly surpass naval gunnery! Because advanced fire control system on ships are much more depended of electricity, than torpedo directors on torpedo boats, the torpedoes after some development could have greater effective range than ship's secondaries. I.e. battleships would be almost defenseless against torpedo boats, making them completely depended on their escorts. Naval battles would basically be solved by torpedo ship duels, with battleships completely relegated to fire support function.

QF guns can handle torpedo boats and you don't need centralized fire control for that aboard torpedo boat destroyers.

Also centralized fire control can be done with voice tubes, mechanical computers and rangefinders. Electromechanical computers and electrical sensor data is better but not absolutely required for increased battleship engagement ranges.

Vinea wrote:
QF guns can handle torpedo boats and you don't need centralized fire control for that aboard torpedo boat destroyers.

If the enemy have WW2-grade torpedoes and you have early XX-century fire control? It would be the excellent example of "our defensive fire is useless, but since it keep our sailors from panicking..."

Also centralized fire control can be done with voice tubes, mechanical computers and rangefinders. Electromechanical computers and electrical sensor data is better but not absolutely required for increased battleship engagement ranges.

It could - on rather primitive level. Russo-Japanese War era, roughly. Even Deryer table without electric data transmission for its output would be severely handicapped.

Dilandu wrote:

Vinea wrote:
QF guns can handle torpedo boats and you don't need centralized fire control for that aboard torpedo boat destroyers.

If the enemy have WW2-grade torpedoes and you have early XX-century fire control? It would be the excellent example of "our defensive fire is useless, but since it keep our sailors from panicking..."

Also centralized fire control can be done with voice tubes, mechanical computers and rangefinders. Electromechanical computers and electrical sensor data is better but not absolutely required for increased battleship engagement ranges.

It could - on rather primitive level. Russo-Japanese War era, roughly. Even Deryer table without electric data transmission for its output would be severely handicapped.

Those limitations go both ways, Dilandu. TBs will only be ble to see so far as the height of their mast allows. Estimating vectors of their targets well enough to accurately target them with even an operable Long Lance will decrease effective ranges drastically. Drastically enough that Rusdo-Japanese war level fire control guided by an aeronought in a balloon will still force a TB to cross a killing ground before they achieve the effective range of any torpedo.

More than anything that's why TBs, even turbine driven steamers, are not the way to go. PT boats powered by diesels are. No telling smoke plumes to give them away at a distance. PT boats have a shot at getting in close enough to effectively target battle wagons.