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Forts & Energy Weapons

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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Vince   » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:36 pm

Vince
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
Wait-a-minute!

::scratches head and arse::

Forts should have been carrying 2 - 3 times the missiles of an SD. SD(P) should have closed the gap, no? So, an SD(P) has damn near the missile loadout of a fort?

::scratches head/arse again::


Since forts don't move, most of their pods are not held internal, but kept in clouds around the area they are defending. They most likely have internal pods as well, for lengthy engagements, but the intiial salvos will be from the floating missile pods.

Forts in the Honorverse move.

They just accelerate slowly because they are far past the limit where an inertial compensator is effective--so they rely on grav plates--similar to the Mesan Alignment's spider drive ships:
On Basilisk Station, Chapter 5 wrote:HMS Fearless decelerated smoothly towards a stop as she passed the inner perimeter of the Junction defenses. She was just under one day out of Manticore orbit, and Manticore System's G0 primary and its G2 companion were dim behind her, reduced to two more stars amid millions, for the Junction lay almost seven light-hours from them.
The duty watch manned their stations alertly, and a stranger on Fearless's bridge might not have recognized the air of gloom which clung to them. But a stranger, Honor thought, reaching up to rub Nimitz's jaw absently, wouldn't have lived with these people for weeks now. A stranger wouldn't recognize their humiliation at being condemned to Basilisk Station, or the way they'd withdrawn ever deeper into their shells until the duties they performed were all they really had in common with their captain.
She leaned back, hiding her desire to sigh sadly behind a calm face, and watched the tactical display. Fearless's projected vector stretched across it, terminating right on the half light-second outbound departure threshold of the Junction. The light cruiser's green bead tracked steadily down the thin line, threading its way through the mammoth defenses, and even in her own depression, Honor felt a familiar tingle at the firepower ringing the invisible doorway between the stars.
The smallest fortress out there massed close to sixteen million tons, twice as much as a superdreadnought, and its weapons-to-mass ratio was far higher. The forts weren't hyper-capable, for they used mass a warship might have devoted to its hyper generators and Warshawski sails to pack in still more firepower, but they were far more than immobile weapon platforms. They had to be.
Each of those forts maintained a stand-by battle watch and a 360º sidewall "bubble" at all times, but no one at this end of the Junction could know anyone was coming through it until they arrived, and no one could remain eternally vigilant. Thus a sneak attack—from, say, Trevor's Star—would always have the advantage of surprise; the attacker would arrive ready for battle, already seeking out targets for his weapons, while the defenders were still reacting to his arrival in their midst.
That was why no defensive planner placed his permanent defenses closer than a half million kilometers or so to a junction. If a hostile task force emerged within energy weapon range of the defenses, those defenses would be destroyed before they could reply, but ships transiting a wormhole junction arrived with a normal-space velocity of barely a few dozen kilometers per second, far too little for a high-speed attack run. With the closest forts so far from him and too little speed for a quick run-in to energy weapon range, any attacker must rely on missiles, and even impeller-drive missiles would require almost thirty-five seconds to reach them. Thus the forts' duty watches—in theory, at least—had time to reach full readiness while the weapons accelerated towards them. In practice, Honor suspected, most of them would still be coming on-line when the missiles arrived, which was why their point defense (unlike their offensive weaponry) was designed for emergency computer override even in peacetime.
In time of war, the forts would be augmented by thickly seeded remote laser platforms—old-fashioned, bomb-pumped laser satellites—much closer in and programmed to automatically engage anything not positively identified as friendly, but such measures were never used in peacetime. Accidents could always happen, and the accidental destruction of a passenger liner whose IFF wasn't recognized could be embarrassing, to say the very least. An attacker would still have sufficient surprise advantage for his energy batteries to kill a lot of satellites before they could respond, but enough of them would survive to handle him very roughly indeed.
Nonetheless, heavy losses could be anticipated in the inner fortress ring under the best possible circumstances, so the "forts" in the outer rings had to be able to move to fill in the gaps and mass upon an attacker. Their maximum acceleration rates were low, well under a hundred gravities, but their initial positions had been very carefully planned. Their acceleration would be enough to intercept attacking forces headed in-system, and their engines were sufficiently powerful to generate impeller wedges and sidewalls to protect them.
Italics are the author's, boldface, underlined and colored text is my emphasis.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:45 am

cthia
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Vince, when I read Theemile's post, I assumed he was talking about the forts not moving, in general. I'm sure he knows they have the ability to move 'if push comes to shove,' but that they hardly do. But I may be impersonating a cop falsely representing a client. LOL

****** *

There's something I don't understand about the textev included in the previous post . . .

snip

Nonetheless, heavy losses could be anticipated in the inner fortress ring under the best possible circumstances, so the "forts" in the outer rings had to be able to move to fill in the gaps and mass upon an attacker. Their maximum acceleration rates were low, well under a hundred gravities, but their initial positions had been very carefully planned. Their acceleration would be enough to intercept attacking forces headed in-system, and their engines were sufficiently powerful to generate impeller wedges and sidewalls to protect them.
Boldface, underlined and colored text belong to Vince.

Isn't that backwards? Shouldn't that be "heavy losses could be anticipated in the outer fortress ring, so the forts in the inner ring had to be able to move." :?:

For sake of envisioning, I'm imagining concentric rings of deployment. The outer rings are more forwardly deployed towards the enemy and take losses first, no?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:06 am

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cthia wrote:Isn't that backwards? Shouldn't that be "heavy losses could be anticipated in the outer fortress ring, so the forts in the inner ring had to be able to move." :?:

For sake of envisioning, I'm imagining concentric rings of deployment. The outer rings are more forwardly deployed towards the enemy and take losses first, no?

It's in reference to an attack through the Junction. The forts have the attacker surrounded, so the forts on the inner face are the ones closest to the enemy.
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:11 am

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cthia wrote:For sake of envisioning, I'm imagining concentric rings of deployment. The outer rings are more forwardly deployed towards the enemy and take losses first, no?


Yes, there would be concentric rings, but the "attacking force" would be coming through the WHJ at the center, not attacking the outer ring first.

Also, you're missing a point about the forts being "mobile" -- the rings change places on a regular basis. The inner forts would be at a very high stage of alert. The next ring would be at a reduced alert level, and the outer ring would be in a rest and recreation mode.

Each outer ring would move inward every twelve to twenty-four hours because the inner ring can't maintain "battle stations" effectively, and the inner ring would move out to the R&R ring.

There would probably be more than three rings, or individual forts would cycle through an extended down-time period to regroup and retrain new personnel as old personnel transfer out or take a discharge.

Of course, none of that applies to the new forts. The old manpower intensive forts have been replaced (during the phony peace, IIRC) with smaller, more automated forts with heavier missile salvos, and remote grazers from the SLN SDs.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:30 am

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:For sake of envisioning, I'm imagining concentric rings of deployment. The outer rings are more forwardly deployed towards the enemy and take losses first, no?


Yes, there would be concentric rings, but the "attacking force" would be coming through the WHJ at the center, not attacking the outer ring first.

Also, you're missing a point about the forts being "mobile" -- the rings change places on a regular basis. The inner forts would be at a very high stage of alert. The next ring would be at a reduced alert level, and the outer ring would be in a rest and recreation mode.

Each outer ring would move inward every twelve to twenty-four hours because the inner ring can't maintain "battle stations" effectively, and the inner ring would move out to the R&R ring.

There would probably be more than three rings, or individual forts would cycle through an extended down-time period to regroup and retrain new personnel as old personnel transfer out or take a discharge.

Of course, none of that applies to the new forts. The old manpower intensive forts have been replaced (during the phony peace, IIRC) with smaller, more automated forts with heavier missile salvos, and remote grazers from the SLN SDs.


Thanks guys! Mine eyes have seen the light.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:16 am

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cthia wrote:Vince, when I read Theemile's post, I assumed he was talking about the forts not moving, in general. I'm sure he knows they have the ability to move 'if push comes to shove,' but that they hardly do. But I may be impersonating a cop falsely representing a client. LOL



Thanks cthia - you're right, I meant "Strategic" movement. that's what happens when you do a drive by posting....

The defensive pods probably never move, but the Forts take control of the clouds of them as they move onto alert status.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by cthia   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:34 am

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:Vince, when I read Theemile's post, I assumed he was talking about the forts not moving, in general. I'm sure he knows they have the ability to move 'if push comes to shove,' but that they hardly do. But I may be impersonating a cop falsely representing a client. LOL



Thanks cthia - you're right, I meant "Strategic" movement. that's what happens when you do a drive by posting....

The defensive pods probably never move, but the Forts take control of the clouds of them as they move onto alert status.


I know, but no problem. Too many of my posts are drive-bys.


For anyone scratching their head, that should have been "impersonating a lawyer."

Regarding the pods that don't move. Could the pods be deployed in the fashion that the Charles Ward deploys them? Then tractored by the Fort when moving? Assuming there's time to do so -- considering the many pods would be out of a Fort's hypothetical-tractor's range. If the Peeps can tow tractored LACs thru hyper, then surely pods can be tractored and towed in system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:54 am

Theemile
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cthia wrote:
I know, but no problem. Too many of my posts are drive-bys.


For anyone scratching their head, that should have been "impersonating a lawyer."

Regarding the pods that don't move. Could the pods be deployed in the fashion that the Charles Ward deploys them? Then tractored by the Fort when moving? Assuming there's time to do so -- considering the many pods would be out of a Fort's hypothetical-tractor's range. If the Peeps can tow tractored LACs thru hyper, then surely pods can be tractored and towed in system.


Compensators - that is the issue here. Forts do not have them due to their size, anything over ~12 Mtons would have negative move numbers if they used compensators. That is why Forts use Grav plates to negate mass - meaning all forts have a normal movement rate of ~50 gs and an emergency rate of 100-120 gs (with 5-6 Gs getting to the Crew.)

And it is the compensated field that negates mass inside the wedge. Meaning - every pod tractored to a fort should reduce it's ability to move. Not knowing current masses, a few dozen should quickly push the movement of a fort to zero - if that many.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:57 am

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Weird Harold wrote:Also, you're missing a point about the forts being "mobile" -- the rings change places on a regular basis. The inner forts would be at a very high stage of alert. The next ring would be at a reduced alert level, and the outer ring would be in a rest and recreation mode.

Each outer ring would move inward every twelve to twenty-four hours because the inner ring can't maintain "battle stations" effectively, and the inner ring would move out to the R&R ring.

There would probably be more than three rings, or individual forts would cycle through an extended down-time period to regroup and retrain new personnel as old personnel transfer out or take a discharge.

Of course, none of that applies to the new forts. The old manpower intensive forts have been replaced (during the phony peace, IIRC) with smaller, more automated forts with heavier missile salvos, and remote grazers from the SLN SDs.

I agree that forts probably rotate possition to at least allow for maintenance periods and periodic crew rest, so probably at least every several days. But I disagree that the outer rings would be at the lowest alert levels. They're the ones that would bear the brunt of an attack coming through hyper - and that's actually the more likely attack vector now. Forts in middle rings can stand down a bit - but those on the outer shell probably have to run at just as high alert as those on the inner shell.

Theemile wrote:Compensators - that is the issue here. Forts do not have them due to their size, anything over ~12 Mtons would have negative move numbers if they used compensators. That is why Forts use Grav plates to negate mass - meaning all forts have a normal movement rate of ~50 gs and an emergency rate of 100-120 gs (with 5-6 Gs getting to the Crew.)

And it is the compensated field that negates mass inside the wedge. Meaning - every pod tractored to a fort should reduce it's ability to move. Not knowing current masses, a few dozen should quickly push the movement of a fort to zero - if that many.
Actually it's extending the compensation field being distorted that slows ships down when towing pods. Without them I don't think the wedge cares how much mass it's moving - so towing pods shouldn't directly slow the fort down. On the other hand the grav plates can't affect the acceleration the towed pods experience - so if the fort makes a 100g emergency run any pod it's towing experiences 100 gees. I'm not sure a pod's tractor and components are rated to take anything near that since they normally experience 0-1g. To avoid damage to the pods a fort might be limited to, say, 5-10 gees of acceleration when towing pods -- but whatever the accel should be able to tow as many pods as can grab on without it affecting that accel.
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Re: Forts & Energy Weapons
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:Compensators - that is the issue here. Forts do not have them due to their size, anything over ~12 Mtons would have negative move numbers if they used compensators. That is why Forts use Grav plates to negate mass - meaning all forts have a normal movement rate of ~50 gs and an emergency rate of 100-120 gs (with 5-6 Gs getting to the Crew.)

And it is the compensated field that negates mass inside the wedge. Meaning - every pod tractored to a fort should reduce it's ability to move. Not knowing current masses, a few dozen should quickly push the movement of a fort to zero - if that many.
Actually it's extending the compensation field being distorted that slows ships down when towing pods. Without them I don't think the wedge cares how much mass it's moving - so towing pods shouldn't directly slow the fort down. On the other hand the grav plates can't affect the acceleration the towed pods experience - so if the fort makes a 100g emergency run any pod it's towing experiences 100 gees. I'm not sure a pod's tractor and components are rated to take anything near that since they normally experience 0-1g. To avoid damage to the pods a fort might be limited to, say, 5-10 gees of acceleration when towing pods -- but whatever the accel should be able to tow as many pods as can grab on without it affecting that accel.


We know that when the pods are deployed outside the wedge, they slow down the ship.
We know when the pods are inside the compensated field, they do not slow down the ship.
We know if you carry too many pods, they extend outside the compensated field and slow down the ship - Is that disturbing the compensation field, or is it just being outside the field? The wedge area is Vast and mostly empty even for a destroyer, one would assume that someone had thought to build distanced tractor that held pods "out there" in the area outside the compensated field but still under the wedge - which would hold thousands of pods even for a destroyer.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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