Snippet #13

Dilandu wrote:Not to mention that AFTER the Reveal, all other nations would just realize, that they were essentially duped twice - that Charisian "innovative mindset" was in fact only a charade, illusion. The consequences might be... extremely unpleasant.

Why would the Reveal must come from Charis (openly)? Why would they admit they knew about the Federation and have their high tech database at their disposal?

Merlin et co need to defeat rakurai and build a high tech civilization on safehold to get to the stars and challenge the Gbaba, but there is a lot of room in there about how the reveal, the truth about the federation, high tech stuff that leads to space etc will be introduced...

After 915 once Merlin and co have confidence the archangels won't show up for many decades at the least (in 915 there is no way the archangels show up as they would crush Charis since the imbalance is too high), there are lots of sneaky ways to go about it - they can conjure any number of fake miracles and visitations in the Temple lands but far enough away from Zion, hide any number of fake testaments of Schueler or other Archangels or testimonies like St Zherneau's in places to be discovered by devout members of the Temple etc - so they can just stir the pot and prepare the Reveal with these new ideas coming actually from CoGA hierarchy and not from them.

isaac_newton wrote:
well - there is also the motivation that they really, really wont want to be left behind by the nations!

So the constant struggle for the second place? Hardly encouraging, considering that all that pretender actually need is to persuade Charis to support his cause. I.e. you basically replace Church as global political ruler with Charis as global political, economical & military ruler. The goal for other countries is not "to innovate" but "to get Charis on our side" and "buy Charis technology, because no one could invent as effective, so why bother?"

cnrd22 wrote:Why would the Reveal must come from Charis (openly)? Why would they admit they knew about the Federation and have their high tech database at their disposal?

Because sooner or later someone would start to actually analyze the recent history, and would notice utter improbability of Charisian fast tech development. After which the conclusion that Charis have access to Old Earth knowledge would be obvious.

there are lots of sneaky ways to go about it - they can conjure any number of fake miracles and visitations in the Temple lands but far enough away from Zion, hide any number of fake testaments of Schueler or other Archangels or testimonies like St Zherneau's in places to be discovered by devout members of the Temple etc - so they can just stir the pot and prepare the Reveal with these new ideas coming actually from CoGA hierarchy and not from them

Er, sorry, but this was rejected by Merlin in the first book quite firmly and reasonably; replacing one supernatural figure with the other would not achieve anything.

And there are quite good probability, that if some "wonders" start to appear, something beneath the Temple might actually start to notice it.

Dilandu wrote:

isaac_newton wrote:
well - there is also the motivation that they really, really wont want to be left behind by the nations!

So the constant struggle for the second place? Hardly encouraging, considering that all that pretender actually need is to persuade Charis to support his cause. I.e. you basically replace Church as global political ruler with Charis as global political, economical & military ruler. The goal for other countries is not "to innovate" but "to get Charis on our side" and "buy Charis technology, because no one could invent as effective, so why bother?"

Dohlar never had the full technological level that Charis had. Not even close. Yet, they won several battles. The competition doesn't require being the most technologically advanced, it requires being close enough to have a good chance to win a conflict. The closer you are, the better to odds given Charis's lower population. Those competing with Charis have a massive incentive to find ways to stay close enough where their numbers can make the difference.

Defensively, this is much easier to achieve and so developing technology to defend themselves won't appear impossible. It will appear very achievable. Heck, Desnair believes they can improve enough to mount a credible defense. I doubt they will try for a navy in Charis's class, but instead try to have enough of a navy to give Dohlar pause. Since Dohlar will try to stay well within shouting distance of Charis, Desnair has to keep improving too.

The sneaky part of the Inner Circle's plan is that to make use of technological advances in defending against or defeating Charis, Safehold nations to have the means to produce large quantities of the almost-as-good weapons. Charis isn't trying to limit access to those mass production techniques. So, the better at production the Safehold nation is, the lower the required tech level to mount an effective defense.

Everyone is looking at improving their production capacity right now and that is half the Inner circle's battle.

Dilandu wrote:

cnrd22 wrote:Why would the Reveal must come from Charis (openly)? Why would they admit they knew about the Federation and have their high tech database at their disposal?

Because sooner or later someone would start to actually analyze the recent history, and would notice utter improbability of Charisian fast tech development. After which the conclusion that Charis have access to Old Earth knowledge would be obvious.

Ayup. That's why Merlin refuses to lie. Ever. He does not always reveal the truth, but he never lies because the truth will be revealed in the end.

Dilandu wrote:

cnrd22 wrote:Why would the Reveal must come from Charis (openly)? Why would they admit they knew about the Federation and have their high tech database at their disposal?

Because sooner or later someone would start to actually analyze the recent history, and would notice utter improbability of Charisian fast tech development. After which the conclusion that Charis have access to Old Earth knowledge would be obvious.

there are lots of sneaky ways to go about it - they can conjure any number of fake miracles and visitations in the Temple lands but far enough away from Zion, hide any number of fake testaments of Schueler or other Archangels or testimonies like St Zherneau's in places to be discovered by devout members of the Temple etc - so they can just stir the pot and prepare the Reveal with these new ideas coming actually from CoGA hierarchy and not from them

Er, sorry, but this was rejected by Merlin in the first book quite firmly and reasonably; replacing one supernatural figure with the other would not achieve anything.

And there are quite good probability, that if some "wonders" start to appear, something beneath the Temple might actually start to notice it.

Regarding the Reveal, the only thing I would say is that people, plans and things change and evolve; in the first volume Merlin had no idea about the Inner Circle (St Zherneau), The Key, the presumed returned of the Archangels every 1000 years, Seijin Khody's story or for that matter that CoGA could actually reform itself (or at least give it a serious try as Grand Vicar Rhobair is doing for now); I remember how he was convincingly telling Cayleb after the shark incident that he may never be able to tell him the full story, only to turn around and do it not long after in the new circumstances.

Regarding Charis and Federation Tech, again it all depends on time frame and methods - the truth will come out, but it won't matter if it comes out some hundred years later when there is no more Charis as such but a new human federation preparing for the war against the Gbaba.

Where are Rainbow Water's remaining 1 million to 1.5 million troops he had at the end of the jihad? This snippet has his troop strength estimated at 300k-400k. If the Emperor refused re-entry to any part of the MH, they are either working in the TL/Border Kingdoms or back in Harchong. I doubt any polity wants that many military aged men loose in their country. That suggests to me most moved back into Harchong as soon as they were released from service to the Temple.

If they are in the center of the chaos between the Eatern Self Governing Region and the United Provinces, then that region is set up to fall under RW's authority a soon as he moves into the area. He can re-claim the majority of those soldiers' loyalty rather quickly. Those warlords leading those men in the region have to know that as well as anyone. That being the case, I doubt Northern Harchong will face an extended period of upheaval if RW is willing to assert his authority.

That suggests to me a Seijin WILL contact RW. So which one? Mab or Athrawes?

Cnrd22 I'm with Dilandu here, Merlin and the Inner Circle have repeatedly said they are not going to lie to people. Firstly because the are people of honour and integrity, and secondly because, pragmatically, there is too much chance of getting caught out and losing trust and credibility, which they are going to need in spades once the Truth comes out. They are all God-fearing people in a society which is still held together by oaths, personal fealty and honour. They can't afford to lose their reputation for being people of their word and neither Maikel or Paityr would ever stand for it.

PeterZ wrote:OOOOOOHHHHH! Charis will continue to build improvements into their battlewagons! I can't wait to see how they upgrade their cruisers and DDs. Everyone knows Dohlar and South Harchong will invest in PT Boats once they figure out how to propel torpedos.

Without electricity I think torpedoes are going to be awfully hard to do.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

PeterZ wrote:OOOOOOHHHHH! Charis will continue to build improvements into their battlewagons! I can't wait to see how they upgrade their cruisers and DDs. Everyone knows Dohlar and South Harchong will invest in PT Boats once they figure out how to propel torpedos.

Without electricity I think torpedoes are going to be awfully hard to do.

Why? If the Torp is powered by compressed air and the gyro is pneumatic, the torp know how to go in a straight line or even correct to achieve the initial heading.

pneumatic gyros