When did Honor become the MVP?

cthia wrote:Honor wasn't on trial, true. But there was nothing stopping Klaus from throwing his weight behind Young's exoneration. He also could have pushed for Harrington's guilt for not passing command, or at least muddied the waters enough to cleanly spring Young. There was never any danger of Young being put to death. In fact, he almost got off scott-free had it not been for Kuzak screaming at Hemphill. (I'll always imagine that's how that went down.)* Sonja wasn't quite over the scalding she got at the WDB, maybe?

At any rate, Klaus was financially supporting the Navy and the Navy being able to continue its war efforts against the Peeps was everyone's worry. If Klaus had threatened to withdraw his financial support atop everything else threatening the Navy's war efforts - Young may have escaped without any punishment.

*"Sonja! What the hell is wrong with you!? Honor is one of ours! Young is scum!"

Hauptman was not supporting the Navy financially as though it was a dependent; he is in a business relationship with the Navy and that is something entirely different.

Hauptman is a cautious, patriotic businessman and not particularly political. He tried to browbeat Honor over her treatment of his ships in OBS, because that was personal. But as a patriot there was no reason to involve himself in the Pavel Young court martial and to do so could have affected his relationship with the Navy, something a cautious businessman would be reluctant to do. A reluctance that was strongly reinforced later, when he saw her performance on the dueling field against Summervale.

I prefer to think that Sonja Hempthill knew that Young was a disgrace to the uniform, but allowed politics to temper her judgment. Screaming at people is not an effective method of persuasion.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor wasn't on trial, true. But there was nothing stopping Klaus from throwing his weight behind Young's exoneration. He also could have pushed for Harrington's guilt for not passing command, or at least muddied the waters enough to cleanly spring Young. There was never any danger of Young being put to death. In fact, he almost got off scott-free had it not been for Kuzak screaming at Hemphill. (I'll always imagine that's how that went down.)* Sonja wasn't quite over the scalding she got at the WDB, maybe?

At any rate, Klaus was financially supporting the Navy and the Navy being able to continue its war efforts against the Peeps was everyone's worry. If Klaus had threatened to withdraw his financial support atop everything else threatening the Navy's war efforts - Young may have escaped without any punishment.

*"Sonja! What the hell is wrong with you!? Honor is one of ours! Young is scum!"

Hauptman was not supporting the Navy financially as though it was a dependent; he is in a business relationship with the Navy and that is something entirely different.

Hauptman is a cautious, patriotic businessman and not particularly political. He tried to browbeat Honor over her treatment of his ships in OBS, because that was personal. But as a patriot there was no reason to involve himself in the Pavel Young court martial and to do so could have affected his relationship with the Navy, something a cautious businessman would be reluctant to do. A reluctance that was strongly reinforced later, when he saw her performance on the dueling field against Summervale.

I prefer to think that Sonja Hempthill knew that Young was a disgrace to the uniform, but allowed politics to temper her judgment. Screaming at people is not an effective method of persuasion.

Hauptman did have a relationship with the navy as the largest taxpayer, and a dependent on it's anti-piracy services. And if the Navy didn't provide sufficient of said services, it would directly impact his carrying business, which would directly impact his tax participation and Manticore's diplomatic clout (which was driven on Manticore's trade empires).

So when Klaus said (later) that insurance costs due to pirate losses would force him to suspend his shipping to Silesia, the Navy took him seriously. He definitely has their ear, at least when appropriate.

tlb wrote:Hauptman is a cautious, patriotic businessman and not particularly political. He tried to browbeat Honor over her treatment of his ships in OBS, because that was personal. But as a patriot there was no reason to involve himself in the Pavel Young court martial and to do so could have affected his relationship with the Navy, something a cautious businessman would be reluctant to do.

Theemile wrote:Hauptman did have a relationship with the navy as the largest taxpayer, and a dependent on it's anti-piracy services. And if the Navy didn't provide sufficient of said services, it would directly impact his carrying business, which would directly impact his tax participation and Manticore's diplomatic clout (which was driven on Manticore's trade empires).

So when Klaus said (later) that insurance costs due to pirate losses would force him to suspend his shipping to Silesia, the Navy took him seriously. He definitely has their ear, at least when appropriate.

I definitely agree and think that attempting to interfere in a court martial would be considered inappropriate.

cthia wrote:I've got a personal question for Honor if I can ever get past her armsmen, but I'll ask all of you. We know the Hauptmans didn't hurt Honor's career in the least bit after she won them over. And I'm sure we all agree the Hauptman's must have done a lot for her, even if only behind the scenes. Can anyone give any concrete examples? I can only specifically recall Stacey buying out a miscreant news column, but nothing else about the news column. Knowing someone with the financial hammer the Hauptman's wield is like knowing Thor, but when did they ever throw the hammer for her? Seriously, I thought the Hauptmans were going to come out swinging at some point against Pavel Young.

ldwechsler wrote:I recall that the Hauptmans partnered with her on some of her projects on Grayson later on.

Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

cthia wrote:I've got a personal question for Honor if I can ever get past her armsmen, but I'll ask all of you. We know the Hauptmans didn't hurt Honor's career in the least bit after she won them over. And I'm sure we all agree the Hauptman's must have done a lot for her, even if only behind the scenes. Can anyone give any concrete examples? I can only specifically recall Stacey buying out a miscreant news column, but nothing else about the news column. Knowing someone with the financial hammer the Hauptman's wield is like knowing Thor, but when did they ever throw the hammer for her? Seriously, I thought the Hauptmans were going to come out swinging at some point against Pavel Young.

ldwechsler wrote:I recall that the Hauptmans partnered with her on some of her projects on Grayson later on.

cthia wrote:Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

The reference is to the shipyards that Honor set up with the Hauptman's help at Blackbird. Here is the text from chapter 21 of Echoes of Honor:

"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."

One other example is in chapter 20 of Ashes of Victory when she is interviewing a lawyer to help with her new duchy:

"What you need, Your Grace," Maxwell corrected calmly, "is a complete legal staff of your own. Failing that, you certainly ought to put one of the major firms on retainer and let them provide the staff. With Willard more or less anchored to Grayson these days, and particularly in light of all the details and complications your new title involves, I shudder to think of the state your affairs must be in just now."
"I do miss Willard's touch. A lot," Honor confessed. "On the other hand, things may not be quite as bad as you assume. The Queen was gracious enough to have her own legal staff handle all the details concerning the duchy, to this point, at least, and Klaus and Stacey Hauptman have been keeping an eye on my business affairs. Actually, unraveling those was a lot more complicated than creating a brand new duchy!"

cthia wrote:Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

tlb wrote:The reference is to the shipyards that Honor set up with the Hauptman's help at Blackbird. Here is the text from chapter 21 of Echoes of Honor:

Thanks. That was actually what my brain was trying to regurgitate upstream when I said Hauptman was supporting the navy -- with orders for a boatload (LOL) of ships. Instead, my wires were crossed. But I knew he had something to do with building ships.

Purely for Posterity

I accidentally stumbled upon some of the very interesting original discussions about the RMN lacking the respect for Honor and putting her in eggshells. It began with me ranting over putting the Queen of Manticore in an eggshell, to ride in to Yeltsin.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I've got a personal question for Honor if I can ever get past her armsmen, but I'll ask all of you. We know the Hauptmans didn't hurt Honor's career in the least bit after she won them over. And I'm sure we all agree the Hauptman's must have done a lot for her, even if only behind the scenes. Can anyone give any concrete examples? I can only specifically recall Stacey buying out a miscreant news column, but nothing else about the news column. Knowing someone with the financial hammer the Hauptman's wield is like knowing Thor, but when did they ever throw the hammer for her? Seriously, I thought the Hauptmans were going to come out swinging at some point against Pavel Young.

ldwechsler wrote:I recall that the Hauptmans partnered with her on some of her projects on Grayson later on.

cthia wrote:Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

The reference is to the shipyards that Honor set up with the Hauptman's help at Blackbird. Here is the text from chapter 21 of Echoes of Honor:

"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."

One other example is in chapter 20 of Ashes of Victory when she is interviewing a lawyer to help with her new duchy:

"What you need, Your Grace," Maxwell corrected calmly, "is a complete legal staff of your own. Failing that, you certainly ought to put one of the major firms on retainer and let them provide the staff. With Willard more or less anchored to Grayson these days, and particularly in light of all the details and complications your new title involves, I shudder to think of the state your affairs must be in just now."
"I do miss Willard's touch. A lot," Honor confessed. "On the other hand, things may not be quite as bad as you assume. The Queen was gracious enough to have her own legal staff handle all the details concerning the duchy, to this point, at least, and Klaus and Stacey Hauptman have been keeping an eye on my business affairs. Actually, unraveling those was a lot more complicated than creating a brand new duchy!"

Hauptman was also a patriot. He would want nothing to do with the Young family and certainly not someone who was clearly a coward.

Also note that if Young had been exonerated, it would have been a disaster for the navy. The officers in favor of that would have been ostracized. The Janacek navy could bring them back but a lot of people would not want anything to do with them.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I've got a personal question for Honor if I can ever get past her armsmen, but I'll ask all of you. We know the Hauptmans didn't hurt Honor's career in the least bit after she won them over. And I'm sure we all agree the Hauptman's must have done a lot for her, even if only behind the scenes. Can anyone give any concrete examples? I can only specifically recall Stacey buying out a miscreant news column, but nothing else about the news column. Knowing someone with the financial hammer the Hauptman's wield is like knowing Thor, but when did they ever throw the hammer for her? Seriously, I thought the Hauptmans were going to come out swinging at some point against Pavel Young.

ldwechsler wrote:I recall that the Hauptmans partnered with her on some of her projects on Grayson later on.

cthia wrote:Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

The reference is to the shipyards that Honor set up with the Hauptman's help at Blackbird. Here is the text from chapter 21 of Echoes of Honor:

"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."

One other example is in chapter 20 of Ashes of Victory when she is interviewing a lawyer to help with her new duchy:

"What you need, Your Grace," Maxwell corrected calmly, "is a complete legal staff of your own. Failing that, you certainly ought to put one of the major firms on retainer and let them provide the staff. With Willard more or less anchored to Grayson these days, and particularly in light of all the details and complications your new title involves, I shudder to think of the state your affairs must be in just now."
"I do miss Willard's touch. A lot," Honor confessed. "On the other hand, things may not be quite as bad as you assume. The Queen was gracious enough to have her own legal staff handle all the details concerning the duchy, to this point, at least, and Klaus and Stacey Hauptman have been keeping an eye on my business affairs. Actually, unraveling those was a lot more complicated than creating a brand new duchy!"

ldwechsler wrote:Hauptman was also a patriot. He would want nothing to do with the Young family and certainly not someone who was clearly a coward.

Also note that if Young had been exonerated, it would have been a disaster for the navy. The officers in favor of that would have been ostracized. The Janacek navy could bring them back but a lot of people would not want anything to do with them.

You make a very compelling argument ldwechsler. I fold and throw in my hand. But I think we can all safely agree that if he wanted to, Hauptman could have easily thrown his resources against Honor, after the confrontation in the turbo lift? Even if simply low-key and behind the scenes. Regardless of how it would have ultimately turn out for him.

BUT!, to add to your excellent point, I never understood Hauptman's absolute anger at Harrington. Overall, Honor was good for business. The overall success of the Salamander helps ensure that there always is a Star Kingdom left in which a Hauptman can do business. If Manticore falls to the Peeps, so would Hauptman's fortune. So, beyond the embarrassment, I couldn't understand the trip all the way out to Yeltsin Star to browbeat the woman who put a stop to the embezzling going on behind his back, risking soiling and jeopardizing his company . . .

Unless he wanted to shake her hand and personally deliver a cargo hold of Old Tilmans.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I've got a personal question for Honor if I can ever get past her armsmen, but I'll ask all of you. We know the Hauptmans didn't hurt Honor's career in the least bit after she won them over. And I'm sure we all agree the Hauptman's must have done a lot for her, even if only behind the scenes. Can anyone give any concrete examples? I can only specifically recall Stacey buying out a miscreant news column, but nothing else about the news column. Knowing someone with the financial hammer the Hauptman's wield is like knowing Thor, but when did they ever throw the hammer for her? Seriously, I thought the Hauptmans were going to come out swinging at some point against Pavel Young.

ldwechsler wrote:I recall that the Hauptmans partnered with her on some of her projects on Grayson later on.

cthia wrote:Her projects on Grayson would be related to Skydomes? Did the Hauptmans invest in Skydomes? Unless it was the baseball team, which I doubt the Hauptman's would care about.

The reference is to the shipyards that Honor set up with the Hauptman's help at Blackbird. Here is the text from chapter 21 of Echoes of Honor:

"I'm sure you are, Lord Alexander," Matthews said. "But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."

One other example is in chapter 20 of Ashes of Victory when she is interviewing a lawyer to help with her new duchy:

"What you need, Your Grace," Maxwell corrected calmly, "is a complete legal staff of your own. Failing that, you certainly ought to put one of the major firms on retainer and let them provide the staff. With Willard more or less anchored to Grayson these days, and particularly in light of all the details and complications your new title involves, I shudder to think of the state your affairs must be in just now."
"I do miss Willard's touch. A lot," Honor confessed. "On the other hand, things may not be quite as bad as you assume. The Queen was gracious enough to have her own legal staff handle all the details concerning the duchy, to this point, at least, and Klaus and Stacey Hauptman have been keeping an eye on my business affairs. Actually, unraveling those was a lot more complicated than creating a brand new duchy!"

ldwechsler wrote:Hauptman was also a patriot. He would want nothing to do with the Young family and certainly not someone who was clearly a coward.

Also note that if Young had been exonerated, it would have been a disaster for the navy. The officers in favor of that would have been ostracized. The Janacek navy could bring them back but a lot of people would not want anything to do with them.

You make a very compelling argument ldwechsler. I fold and throw in my hand. But I think we can all safely agree that if he wanted to, Hauptman could have easily thrown his resources against Honor, after the confrontation in the turbo lift? Even if simply low-key and behind the scenes. Regardless of how it would have ultimately turn out for him.

BUT!, to add to your excellent point, I never understood Hauptman's absolute anger at Harrington. Overall, Honor was good for business. The overall success of the Salamander helps ensure that there always is a Star Kingdom left in which a Hauptman can do business. If Manticore falls to the Peeps, so would Hauptman's fortune. So, beyond the embarrassment, I couldn't understand the trip all the way out to Yeltsin Star to browbeat the woman who put a stop to the embezzling going on behind his back, risking soiling and jeopardizing his company . . .

Unless he wanted to shake her hand and personally deliver a cargo hold of Old Tilmans.[/quote]

Thanks. I think at first he didn't recognize the kind of person she is. He probably thought she was over officious and, as a powerful person, probably assumed he was always right. Look at certain billionaires today not to mention politicians and,even more, the combination.

But as noted, once he realized that he owed her a debt for saving him and his daughter, one where she risked her life, he did the right thing.

If RFC had the same kind of universe thing that Eric Flint has for the 163x universe, he would be a great character to use.