Honorverse ramblings and musings

Remember the story of Samson and Delilah? The Walls of Jericho? David and Goliath? Daniel in the lion's den? God is on the side of the righteous, not the mightiest. Might doesn't make right in God's eye.

The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Be it mountains of evil or mountains of people. Strength comes from faith, not by secular magnitude. The bigger they are the harder they fall.

God only requires faith, as little as a mustard seed . . .

E = MC² - a little faith (Mass) goes a long way.

God created all the Mass of the world in six days. Then he said . . .

"Let there be light." So that we can C.

-cthia


"I can't see! I can't see!

"What's the matter?"

"I got my eyes closed."


O ye of little faith.



****** *


CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

I am continuing to take a beating within my own circle of friends for opening this particular can-o-worms. My niece hasn't quite forgiven me yet. It is turning into a discussion of the males against the females. I suppose it is because it is a woman who wields the unfair advantage. If the situation was reversed I think they'd feel differently. I'll attempt to defend my stance a bit better.

The People's Champion vs Burdette was personal. It was not simply personal to Honor and Nimitz, it was personal to God. To Grayson. The Graysons. The Protector. The Keys. And to the Church of Humanity Unchained.

To deceitfully disrespect that which is represented by Tester is just plain old wrong. Τhe People's Champion deceitfully representing the Church and Tester is legally wrong, immoral and unrighteous. Burdette shouldn't have had to worry whether or not the contest would be fought fairly. That's just plain morally wrong. And its certainly not the Christian thing to do to mix inhuman like abilities like those found in Genies on a planet without Genies, and withhold the fact. And since it had been conducted in such a fashion . . .

JUST MIGHT MEAN BURDETTE'S RHETORIC IS TRUE.

The mistake of not coming clean could further taint the opinion of the galaxy against Genies.

Burdette could be made out to be the pure essence of a martyr, destroying the integrity of the Protector of Grayson and his People's Champion. I see a real potential for a Constitutional Crisis on Grayson. Just like that, the Manticoran infidels are indeed shown to be deceitful.

The duel was NOT carried out with respect to what is near and dear to the hearts and souls of Graysons—the teachings of Tester. Integrity. Tester, who does not engage in deceit, or murder. Honor has presented a can-o-worms which should never be set loose.


I think I was in error about Benjamin's decision never to lie to his constituents, because I haven't been able to locate the passage. At least not in Flag in Exile. The closest I've found is his decision to never ever lie to reporters, which is essentially the same thing when it comes to the can-o-squirming-worms I opened beginning here. If the Protector is ever questioned point blank about his Champion's secret and unfair advantage during the duel with Burdette, the Protector will not lie to the press.

Burdette had a right to know . . .

Morally and legally.

Expanding one of my past posts . . .

Is it exactly righteous to withhold knowledge of Honor's ability under the circumstances of this duel? Knowing full-well Burdette didn't have a chance, and knowing because of it, Burdette himself didn't know he had NO CHANCE. I agree that it is righteous for the People's champion to use her talents. It is part of the riches God has bestowed upon her. So why not proclaim it on high and scream it to the world for all who may dare to challenge the People's Champion, the truth about she who represents God - lest God be put in a position to be accused of deceit - and then let [him] be foolish, or wise, to challenge. Blasphemous actions by a Protector and his Champion could destroy Grayson.

At the very least, with foreknowledge of Honor's inhuman-like abilities Burdette may have chosen the low guard position, instead of the high guard . . . opening himself up to be sliced from asshole to appetite.

On present day Earth, one may have a right to know if one is going up against what is essentially a mutant.

Clark Kent's parents, to Clark's chagrin, told him he didn't have any business on the gridiron.

This is the entire crux of the war on present day Earth of those who object to letting mutants live amongst them. And they have a point. Are mutants going to be fair, honest and forthright in all exchanges and interactions with their fellow man? If there is a disagreement between two humans, does not he who may end up in a quarrel have a right to know who, or what, he may be angering? Do they have a right on the gridiron, unfairly running up tremendous points possibly hurting and killing people in the process?

Grayson is a religious planet completely devoid of Genies. Well, until Honor. IINM, Honor and Beth are the only Genies who have ever set foot on Grayson. It would be highly irresponsible, unfair and dangerous—arguably murderous—to mix the two without knowledge. Grayson's past time of baseball would be destroyed by the influx of genies. Heck, steroids has damn near destroyed it now. Genies, Scrags and San Martinos would kill people and the sport. Perhaps that is why there isn't many planets where contact sports has survived.


Benjamin's decision never to lie to reporters . . .

Chapter 21 Flag in Exile wrote:The news, as the Protector had known it must, had leaked, and the media was playing the story for all it was worth.

No, he told himself sternly, that wasn't fair. The Grayson press corps was more responsible than most. In fact, it was possibly a bit too much on the "tame" side—as a reflection of its society's deference-based mores and traditional respect for authority, no doubt—and the newsies had checked their facts carefully before going public. Unfortunately, they had those facts straight, and one thing Benjamin Mayhew had learned from others' mistakes was to never, ever lie to reporters. Refusing to comment and keeping a lid on stories was one thing; destroying his credibility forever was something else entirely, and it was a deadly simple thing to do.

So he'd confirmed the lab reports in as noninflammatory a fashion as possible and preserved his credibility . . . for whatever that was worth.

Pandora's box originally opened.

Cthia, I advise you to surrender to your friends and family on this issue. If you don't, you are going to lose, and not gracefully.

In your arguments are you saying that the end justifies the means? That Burdette and Mueller were justified in conspiring in secret to murder innocent civilians that they were sworn to protect, including children, in order to discredit the Protector and Honor? That Burdette was justified in his actions that caused Reverend Hanks' death? That Honor should have been deliberately and willfully murdered at the direction of Burdette? And that because that Honor as Protector's Champion was a genie should excuse Burdette from the justice that he, and he alone, chose and demanded to face and receive? Even when Burdette knew that Honor had been injured

Flag in Exile, Chapter 29 wrote:weariness, the pain of broken ribs, the ache in bruised muscles, the stiffness of her left shoulder

, and that gave him another potential advantage (beyond that of holding the rank of Master Second in the sword) in setting out to deliberately and willfully kill her in single combat? Even though every Grayson alive, including Burdette, is a genie with the heavy metals tolerance that Honor lacks?

Echoes of Honor, Chapter Chapter 6 wrote:"This is the long arm of what we call Chromosome Seven, Your Grace," she told him. "Specifically, this—" she tapped a macro on the holo unit and a cursor flashed, indicating a point on the image "—is a gene with a long and sometimes ugly history in medical science. A single gene mutation at this site produces a disease known as cystic fibrosis, which drastically alters the secretory function of the lungs and pancreas."
It was also, she did not mention, a disease which had been eradicated over a millennium and a half ago on planets with modern medical science . . . and one which still turned up from time to time on Grayson.
"I see," Sullivan said after a moment, then quirked one eyebrow at her. "And the reason for telling me this, My Lady?" he inquired politely.
"The reason for telling you, Your Grace, is that my research and mapping suggest quite conclusively to me that this portion of the genetic code of your people—" she jabbed an index finger at the cursor in the holo image "—was deliberately altered almost a thousand years ago."
"Altered?" Sullivan sat upright in his chair.
"Altered, Your Grace. Engineered." Allison drew a deep breath. "In other words, Sir, you and all your people have been genetically modified."

***Snip***

"Heavy metals enter the body via the respiratory and digestive tracts, Your Grace, hence your air filtration systems and the constant battle to decontaminate your farm soil. Apparently, whoever was responsible for this—" she jutted her chin at the holo image once again "—intended to build a filtration system into your bodies as well, by modifying the mucosal barriers in your lungs and digestive tract. Your secretory proteins are substantially different from, say, my own. They bind the metals—or a large proportion of them, at any rate—which allows them to be cleared from the body in sputum and other wastes, rather than being absorbed wholesale into the tissues. They don't do a perfect job, of course, but they're the reason your tolerance for heavy metals is so much higher than my own. Up until two or three months ago, the assumption, particularly in light of your ancestors' limited technological resources and, um, attitude towards the resources they did have, was that this must represent a natural facet of adaptive evolution, even if we had no idea how it had happened so quickly."
"But you no longer believe this to be the case," Sullivan said quietly.
"No, Your Grace. I've found flanking regions of rhinovirus genetic material around the cystic fibrosis locus indicated in the holo here, and I think I can say with some assurance that it didn't get there accidentally."
"Rhinovirus?"
"The vector for the common cold," Allison said dryly, "which could have offered several useful advantages to the med teams who made use of it. For one thing, with your people so tightly confined in the limited air-filtered habitats they could build, an aerosol vector like this would be very easily spread. Given the fact that I've found absolutely no mention of it anywhere in the records, I might also hazard the guess that the project was kept confidential at the time—possibly to avoid raising hopes if, in fact, it should fail. Or there could have been other reasons. And if there were, spreading the alteration via 'a cold' would have the advantage of maximum concealability, as well."
"Indeed it would have, and there could well have been 'other reasons' to do such a thing quietly," Sullivan agreed, and it was his turn to smile crookedly. "Despite my own analysis of why Father Church does not believe in suppression, not everyone in our history would have agreed with me, and no doubt there have been times when our freer thinkers found that . . . discretion was indicated. As I'm sure you've discovered in the course of your research, My Lady, many of our Founders were zealots. Heavens, look at those lunatics who launched the Civil War four hundred years later! However trying our own times may be, they do not compare to the Tests which faced the Founders, and it would certainly have been possible that the Founding Elders might have feared that some of the more blindly faithful among their flock would have reacted badly to the notion of such a thing as permanently modifying their own bodies and those of all their descendants."
"As you say, Your Grace," Allison murmured, then shrugged. "At any rate, we might think of this as a sort of weapon of beneficent biological warfare, an agent designed to modify the genetic material of your people in order to give them a fighting chance at surviving their environment. Unfortunately, it looks like it was a fast and dirty method, even by the standards of then-current technology."
Sullivan frowned, and she shook her head quickly.
"That wasn't a criticism, Your Grace! Whoever managed this was clearly working on a shoestring, with limited resources. He had to do the best with what he had, and what he managed was brilliantly conceived and clearly executed effectively. But I suspect that the need for speed, coupled with extremely limited facilities, prevented his team from carrying out as careful an analysis as they would have wished, and it looks like the vector carried a second, unintentional modification which they failed to recognize at the time."
"Unintentional?" Sullivan's frown was deeper now, not in displeasure but in thought, and Allison nodded.
"I'm certain it was. And the nature of their problem no doubt helps explain what happened. You see, whoever designed this modification had to make the adaptive mutation inheritable. Simply modifying the gene in those actually exposed to the rhinovirus wouldn't work, because it would have been a purely somatic mutation, which means it would have died with the first generation of hosts. To keep that from happening, he—or they—had to cross from the somatic to the germ line—modify the rhinovirus to cross the mucosal barrier and show a predilection for primordial germ cells in the host's ovaries and testes—in order to pass it on to the first generation's offspring. What had to be accomplished was analogous to, oh, the mumps virus. That infects the salivary glands, but also attacks the ovaries and testes and can account for some cases of male infertility."
Sullivan nodded to indicate understanding, and Allison hid another mental smile. Interesting that he showed no discomfort at all with the way the conversation was headed. Of course, with the high percentage of stillborn boys on this planet, Graysons had been fanatical about prenatal care for centuries, and men were just as involved in the process (at one remove, of course! she amended) as women.
"They had no real option about that," she went on. "Not if they wanted the change to be a permanent addition to the planetary genome. But in the process, they also got an unintended mutation. Their intervention introduced a stable trinucleotide repeat on the X chromosome, which wouldn't have been a problem . . . except that it in turn affected one of the AGG codons." Sullivan looked blank. "AGG codons are adenine-guanine-guanine sequences that act as locks on the expansion of other trinucleotide repeats," she explained helpfully.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis. (That genetically engineered heavy metals tolerance is probably the primary reason why Graysons were alive by the time of The Honor of the Queen.)

Because in your aguments, of the questions that I have asked above, you are answering yes to each of them. And your friends and family realize it. As far as I can tell, the people of the Honorverse, including both Manticorans and Graysons, accept that God gave man free will to make choices, and accept responsibility for the results of those choices. Are you saying that Honor should not have the right to choose to face her Test that she had trained for in her duty as Protector's Champion?

God works his will in the world through the choices that his followers make, no matter who they might be or what gifts he has given them. Remember that Justice is depicted as a blindfolded woman holding both a balance scale and a SWORD. Would you excuse Burdette, a murderer, from facing true Justice and Judgement?

Again, that is what you are saying. And your friends and family realize it.

cthia wrote:Remember the story of Samson and Delilah? The Walls of Jericho? David and Goliath? Daniel in the lion's den? God is on the side of the righteous, not the mightiest. Might doesn't make right in God's eye.

The faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. Be it mountains of evil or mountains of people. Strength comes from faith, not by secular magnitude. The bigger they are the harder they fall.

God only requres faith, as little as a mustard seed . . .

E = MC² - a little faith (Mass) goes a long way.

God created all the Mass of the world in six days. Then he said . . .

"Let there be light." So that we can C.

-cthia


"I can't see! I can't see!

"What's the matter?"

"I got my eyes closed."


O ye of little faith.



****** *


CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

I am continuing to take a beating within my own circle of friends for opening this particular can-o-worms. My niece hasn't quite forgiven me yet. It is turning into a discussion of the males against the females. I suppose it is because it is a woman who wields the unfair advantage. If the situation was reversed I think they'd feel differently. I'll attempt to defend my stance a bit better.

The People's Champion vs Burdette was personal. It was not simply personal to Honor and Nimitz, it was personal to God. To Grayson. The Graysons. The Protector. The Keys. And to the Church of Humanity Unchained.

To deceitfully disrespect that which is represented by Tester is just plain old wrong. Τhe People's Champion deceitfully representing the Church and Tester is legally wrong, immoral and unrighteous. Burdette shouldn't have had to worry whether or not the contest would be fought fairly. That's just plain morally wrong. And its certainly not the Christian thing to do to mix inhuman like abilities like those found in Genies on a planet without Genies, and withhold the fact. And since it had been conducted in such a fashion . . .

JUST MIGHT MEAN BURDETTE'S RHETORIC IS TRUE.

The mistake of not coming clean could further taint the opinion of the galaxy against Genies.

Burdette could be made out to be the pure essence of a martyr, destroying the integrity of the Protector of Grayson and his People's Champion. I see a real potential for a Constitutional Crisis on Grayson. Just like that, the Manticoran infidels are indeed shown to be deceitful.

The duel was NOT carried out with respect to what is near and dear to the hearts and souls of Graysons—the teachings of Tester. Integrity. Tester, who does not engage in deceit, or murder. Honor has presented a can-o-worms which should never be set loose.


I think I was in error about Benjamin's decision never to lie to his constituents, because I haven't been able to locate the passage. At least not in Flag in Exile. The closest I've found is his decision to never ever lie to reporters, which is essentially the same thing when it comes to the can-o-squirming-worms I opened beginning here. If the Protector is ever questioned point blank about his Champion's secret and unfair advantage during the duel with Burdette, the Protector will not lie to the press.

Burdette had a right to know . . .

Morally and legally.

Expanding one of my past posts . . .

Is it exactly righteous to withhold knowledge of Honor's ability under the circumstances of this duel? Knowing full-well Burdette didn't have a chance, and knowing because of it, Burdette himself didn't know he had NO CHANCE. I agree that it is righteous for the People's champion to use her talents. It is part of the riches God has bestowed upon her. So why not proclaim it on high and scream it to the world for all who may dare to challenge the People's Champion, the truth about she who represents God - lest God be put in a position to be accused of deceit - and then let [him] be foolish, or wise, to challenge. Blasphemous actions by a Protector and his Champion could destroy Grayson.

At the very least, with foreknowledge of Honor's inhuman-like abilities Burdette may have chosen the low guard position, instead of the high guard . . . opening himself up to be sliced from asshole to appetite.

On present day Earth, one may have a right to know if one is going up against what is essentially a mutant.

Clark Kent's parents, to Clark's chagrin, told him he didn't have any business on the gridiron.

This is the entire crux of the war on present day Earth of those who object to letting mutants live amongst them. And they have a point. Are mutants going to be fair, honest and forthright in all exchanges and interactions with their fellow man? If there is a disagreement between two humans, does not he who may end up in a quarrel have a right to know who, or what, he may be angering? Do they have a right on the gridiron, unfairly running up tremendous points possibly hurting and killing people in the process?

Grayson is a religious planet completely devoid of Genies. Well, until Honor. IINM, Honor and Beth are the only Genies who have ever set foot on Grayson. It would be highly irresponsible, unfair and dangerous—arguably murderous—to mix the two without knowledge. Grayson's past time of baseball would be destroyed by the influx of genies. Heck, steroids has damn near destroyed it now. Genies, Scrags and San Martinos would kill people and the sport. Perhaps that is why there isn't many planets where contact sports has survived.


Benjamin's decision never to lie to reporters . . .

Chapter 21 Flag in Exile wrote:The news, as the Protector had known it must, had leaked, and the media was playing the story for all it was worth.

No, he told himself sternly, that wasn't fair. The Grayson press corps was more responsible than most. In fact, it was possibly a bit too much on the "tame" side—as a reflection of its society's deference-based mores and traditional respect for authority, no doubt—and the newsies had checked their facts carefully before going public. Unfortunately, they had those facts straight, and one thing Benjamin Mayhew had learned from others' mistakes was to never, ever lie to reporters. Refusing to comment and keeping a lid on stories was one thing; destroying his credibility forever was something else entirely, and it was a deadly simple thing to do.

So he'd confirmed the lab reports in as noninflammatory a fashion as possible and preserved his credibility . . . for whatever that was worth.

Pandora's box originally opened.

Vince wrote:Cthia, I advise you to surrender to your friends and family on this issue. If you don't, you are going to lose, and not gracefully.

Ok, now you're sounding like one of my Romanian friends . . .

"We recommend you give up the goblin on this one."

A cute misquoted American idiom of "Give up the ghost." Albeit, close enough.

Vince wrote:In your arguments are you saying that the end justifies the means?

I've never been a proponent of "The ends justifies the means."

Vince wrote:That Burdette and Mueller were justified in conspiring in secret to murder innocent civilians that they were sworn to protect, including children, in order to discredit the Protector and Honor? That Burdette was justified in his actions that caused Reverend Hanks' death?

Burdette was trying to uphold his sworn obligation to protect the whole of Grayson as far as what he thought was transpiring.


Burdette did not conspire to kill children. He had no way of knowing the kids would be present. And they shouldn't have been there. I went a round or two with the author on that one. No supervisor in his right mind adhering to OSHA's rules and regulations would allow kids on an officially unfinished construction site! As a Civil Engineer, I stand firm on that one. Something simple - but just as deadly - can happen like a hammer being blown off scaffolding and plummeting several stories right on some kid's head. Or something even worse like the entire fricking site tumbling down on an entrie group of kids because of the avarice and greed of cutting corners.

Vince wrote: That Honor should have been deliberately and willfully murdered at the direction of Burdette?

It would NOT have been murder! Legal dueling IS NOT murder. A few of you have bandied that one about. Don't think I don't notice that you fail to consider illegal dueling (the unfair use of a secret weapon) as murder.

Vince wrote: And that because that Honor as Protector's Champion was a genie should excuse Burdette from the justice that he, and he alone, chose and demanded to face and receive?

If Burdette had justice coming, nothing should have excused him from receiving it. Likewise, nothing should excuse Honor from cheating in a duel. That was totally unlike her. She should have divilged her abilities since it made the contest NO CONTEST. Very unfair.

Burdette chose to initiate his rights under the spirit of the traditional rules of the duel. To face the Protector's Champion who is certainly expected to be chosen from a pool of Grayson citizens who are without modified genetic code making them essentially mutants. Secret mutants.

Vince wrote: Even when Burdette knew that Honor had been injured and that gave him another potential advantage (beyond that of holding the rank of Master Second in the sword) in setting out to deliberately and willfully kill her in single combat?

Quite frankly, that wasn't Burdette's problem. It was the Protector's and his Champion's problem. If Honor's injuries were clearly going to affect her ability to fight, the Protector should have delayed the duel. If the rules of the contest forbade it, then the fault lie in the rules. Not with Burdette.

As far as Burdette being a Master Swordsman, the art is practiced on Grayson. Quite possibly in foresight?

Vince wrote: Even though every Grayson alive, including Burdette, is a genie with the heavy metals tolerance that Honor lacks?

Okay now you're simply being silly, or desperate. Or both. I admit to forgetting that technically the Graysons are Genies as well. A point of contention that my friends corrected. But even they conceded the silliness in comparing the two Genies. My take on that to them was this . . .

There is a point on the genetic line of tampering that the Beowulf Code warns should not be crossed. IMO, there is also a point on the safe side of the line - where although it is considered genetically safe to tamper with - departs from being a simple medical fix to becoming inhuman. Or rather, departs too much from being human to allow the result on the gridiron unless against similarly modified humans.

Vince wrote:Because in your aguments, of the questions that I have asked above, you are answering yes to each of them. And your friends and family realize it.

I'll trust that now you know that is nay.

Vince wrote:As far as I can tell, the people of the Honorverse, including both Manticorans and Graysons, accept that God gave man free will to make choices, and accept responsibility for the results of those choices.

A most crucial fact that most non Christians just can't seem to get.

Vince wrote:Are you saying that Honor should not have the right to choose to face her Test that she had trained for in her duty as Protector's Champion?

That is absolutely NOT what I'm saying. Honor does have the right to face her Test. As People's Champion, she also has the responsibility. But she does NOT have the right to cheat. She does NOT have the right to use an unfair game changing secret weapon to definitively determine the outcome. She does not have the right to taint God's plan and soil the faith and trust of his judgements on his people. It reminds me of Moses' decision to smash the Ten Commandments. God did not authorize or approve of that and he showed his anger.

God doesn't need people to cheat for him. You are NOT representing God if you are cheating. God doesn't need to cheat you to beat you. Because of Honor's decision to use her abilities without divulging them, it unnecessarily tainted the results of the outcome and literally provides fuel for others to bring down God's house. And if her actions weren't downright murderous, they damn sure toed the line of. Or at least manslaughter. They were unarguably controversial. Controversy has destroyed many governments and Churches.

Vince wrote:God works his will in the world through the choices that his followers make, no matter who they might be or what gifts he has given them.

God works his will thru Divine order. IOW, there is a method to God's "madness." Cheating and skirting the line of murder is not Divine order.

Remember that Justice is depicted as a blindfolded woman holding both a balance scale and a SWORD.

That's the symbol of man's justice. God's comparative symbol of justice would be holding the Book of Life in one hand and the Keys to Hell in the other.

Vince wrote:Would you excuse Burdette, a murderer, from facing true Justice and Judgement?

I would excuse no murderer for facing true justice. But justice as it were is not true. And Honor's withholding of her abilities should not be accepted, by Tester or the Graysons. She unnecessarily tainted the results potentially undermining God's will and/or the integrity of the Graysons and quite possibly and certainly more importantly Grayson's faith in Tester.

Vince wrote:Again, that is what you are saying. And your friends and family realize it.

No.

This is what I am saying . . .

There was no need for Honor to give future ammunition to the Opposition by not divulging her secret. Would you want to be told by the head of your government if you were going into a traditional state sanctioned battle with another human who is essentially a mutant? Would you feel you had a right to know if said head of government knew? Would you feel you had a right to know if said head of government knew PLUS claims to be righteous AND PROTECTOR? If Burdette was your child under these circumstances would you not feel he was murdered? But let's bracket all of that for now.

What many of you are missing is the separation of Church and State. You are missing the religious argument that Burdette stood on. All of your arguments are from a secular mindset. A true judge has the responsibility to fairly weigh the preponderance of evidence from the viewpoint of both sides. Even determining when certain evidence should not be allowed and summarily dismissed. Like whether the outcome of the duel should definitively represent the true intent of God's judgment.

Try to grasp this. Burdette and his compatriots really felt that the Protector is leading Grayson astray. What you are failing to consider is that Burdette just may be right. As readers, even we don't know that he isn't. If he is right then he was trying to do the right thing by the Doctrine of his Test. Albeit, quite possibly going about it wrongly or at least certainly making a few wrong turns by the hands of imperfect humans. Although, in the war against powers and principalities, people are going to lose their lives, their minds and their souls.

We don't know that Burdette isn't ultimately right that the path they now travel will hurt Grayson's religious beliefs, and much more, in the long run. We'd have to watch Grayson for several centuries to know for sure. How will allowing itself to be infiltrated by infidels in high positions of power affect their way of life and what is near and dear to their souls. Grayson's most prized possessions are not measured in weight of metal, advancements in medicine, alliances with navies or the almighty credit. It is their faith.

Frankly, I think Mueller and Burdette have a legitimate case against the decisions of Protector Benjamin. Benjamin unfairly used Honor as a springboard and fulcrum for his own ends -- putting Honor squarely in the middle of his problems with certain attitudes of the Keys. He admitted as much. To do that was morally wrong to do to the Keys as well as Honor. Honor saved the planet and the Graysons were thankful. But there was no need to make her a Key and the Protector's Champion. It is going too far to put her in the middle of domestic matters between Church and State. Then making matters worse when the State intervened in matters of the Church by the use of deception. The deception of withholding the fact that your champion is essentially a mutant and the fact that going up against that mutant is literally suicide if you know what you are facing. Murder if you don't.

Benjamin made too many changes too quickly. And although it'll floor me if anyone admits it (only two of my friends do) Benjamin's decisions weren't exactly altruistic. He saw an opportunity to use Honor's accomplishments to sway the balance of power between him and the Keys. Effectively eliminating checks and balances and brandishing himself with the power of a dictator. He showed himself as an opportunist and outright used Honor in that endeavor. And he admitted it. Honor expressed concerns about his decisions on many occasions.

Making Honor a Key gives a woman the power of a man. An offworlder and an infidel at that. We as readers and non Graysons see nothing wrong with that. And there isn't by our yardsticks. But these are Graysons with vastly different beliefs rooted in religion. In fact, at the root of one of Mueller and companies biggest objections is still argued right here on present day Earth today . .

"Should a woman be allowed in the pulpit?"

Grayson, as a people, was doing just fine without the Manticorans. They just needed their help to save them from the Masadans and they owed them for it. However, to reflect the essence of Mueller and company's sentiment, they didn't owe them their souls. That is too high a price to pay.

As infidel outsiders looking in, we cannot say how the Protector's Restoration will ultimately affect Grayson several centuries down the road.

Can anyone understand the relevance of Star Trek's Prime Directive on this argument of technology and foreign mindsets interacting with the natural development of a society and its beliefs?

I would argue that while the specific details of Honor's heavy grav adaptation weren't public knowledge all of Grayson knew that she was adapted to her heavy grav homeworld. And her hand to hand lethality and reflexes should have been no surprise to anyone who saw the widely broadcast tapes of the attempted assassination of Benjamin and his family.

Burdette should have already know exactly what he was facing when he reached back for an archaic trial by combat ritual that hadn't been used in (IIRC) over a century. He was just betting that her rookie status at a sword would more than counterbalance any natural reaction advantage Honor might have. Plus of course it was all a Hail Mary desperation move since he was about to be seized, tried for his crimes, and executed.

Even if Honor had paused to announce that her mods and heavy grav upbringing made the attempt suicide I can't imagine Burdette withdrawing his challenge because his only other alternative was certain death. He's still going to take the chance because it's the only chance he has.

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:God works his will in the world through the choices that his followers make, no matter who they might be or what gifts he has given them.

God works his will thru Divine order. IOW, there is a method to God's "madness." Cheating and skirting the line of murder is not Divine order.

God did not give man infinite wisdom. God gave man free will. That is the right to choose, based on a (wo)man's knowledge and experience, even if the choice may be wrong, or is otherwise in error due to misunderstanding, or not knowing all of a given situation. And Burdette chose to face Honor in an attempt to strike down Honor and reverse the Mayhew Restoration of the Grayson constitution as written--and NOT amended:

Flag in Exile, Chapter 16 wrote:"Tell me, Henry. What do you think of his argument?" Benjamin asked more naturally, and Prestwick shrugged.
"I think it's based on shaky legal ground, Your Grace."
"How shaky?" Mayhew pressed.
"Very shaky," Prestwick replied with a small, wry grin. "Your Grace, if my predecessors and I intended to establish permanent ministerial control of the government, we made a serious error—as the Court reminded us—in not amending the Constitution." His smile grew a bit wider, and Benjamin returned it tightly, but then Prestwick leaned forward with a more serious air.
"The problem, Your Grace, is that for over a hundred years, precedent said the Protector was the symbolic guarantor of a stable continuity, but that the actual business of running the government was his Council's affair, while the Constitution still said he was the head of government, not just the state." He shrugged. "When you reasserted your authority, you certainly violated that precedent, but the written Constitution—which every Grayson steadholder and military officer is sworn to uphold—gave you every right to do so. We simply never anticipated that you would."
"And do you think it was a good thing?" Benjamin had never asked that question before—not in so many words—and Prestwick paused a moment. Then—
"Yes, Your Grace, I do," he said quietly.
"Why?" Benjamin asked, equally quietly.
"Because you were right: we do need a stronger executive." The Chancellor looked away, gazing out the office windows as he went on. "I supported your position on the treaty with Manticore even before you, ah, reclaimed your authority, because I agreed that we needed the industrial and economic advantages, not to mention the military ones, it would bring. But despite that, I truly hadn't realized—then—how completely the Keys dominated the Council. I should have, since I was part of the system, but I was too busy dealing with day-to-day details to see any larger picture. And because I was, I hadn't realized we were actually in danger of returning to the Five Keys."

***Snip***

Benjamin had read, during his years at Harvard University's Bogota campus, of the parliament of the ancient Kingdom of Poland in which every baron had a seat and unanimous consent was required for any decision, with the predictable result that nothing ever was decided. Grayson's situation hadn't been quite that bad, but it had been bad enough, for the members of the Protector's Council had to be approved by the Conclave of Steadholders. That ancient right was still reserved to it under the Constitution, and over time, a succession of weak protectors had permitted the Keys to assume outright control of the Council's membership. The great steadholders of their day—men like Burdette, Mueller, Mackenzie, and Garth—had divided the Council among themselves and doled out the ministries like conquered fiefs. Each of them, with a small group of lesser allies, had controlled the appointment of the Councilman who headed "his" ministry, and those ministers, each responsible to his own patron steadholders, had controlled the appointment of the men who staffed their ministries. It had been a simple progression, a matter of who actually commanded the loyalties of each shell of the government and its bureaucracies, which had extended itself insidiously until the Protector had controlled only his own household. As in the Time of the Five Keys, it had been the steadholders who formulated domestic policy, and that policy had been directed towards insuring their own autonomy. As for foreign policy, there simply hadn't been one—aside from the traditional hostility to Masada—for no one had been interested in making one until the confrontation between Manticore and Haven had suddenly given their star system crucial strategic importance.
But, the Keys had failed to amend the Constitution . . . or to recognize the prestige the Mayhew name still commanded among their steaders. When the Council found itself paralyzed by Haven's attempt to seize Yeltsin's Star through its Masadan proxies, it had been a Mayhew who broke the paralysis. And, once again, that act had made a man named Benjamin Protector of Grayson in fact, as well as name.
The Sword had regained its keenness, and there was nothing—legally—the Keys could do about it. At one time, Grayson's Church and civil law had been identical, with the Sacristy as the planetary High Court. But the same carnage which had produced the Constitution had taught the Church a painful lesson in the consequences of religious interference in secular matters. Grayson law still enshrined the theocratic tenets which had always infused it, but for six centuries, sitting judges had been legally barred from Church office. A distinctly secular element had crept into the law as a result, but the Church still trained the planet's jurists. And it also retained the right to approve appointments to the High Court, which, among other things, exercised judicial review of constitutional matters.
That right of approval had been critical to the events of four years past, for Julius Hanks had been the Sacristy's guiding force—first as Second Elder, and then as Reverend and First Elder—for over three decades, and the Keys' increasing arrogance had worried him. His options had been limited, but he'd exercised the ones he had, and the High Court judges approved under his leadership had been strict constructionalists. The Keys hadn't worried about it overmuch. Perhaps they hadn't even considered the implications . . . until the Mayhew Restoration, when the Court ruled that the written Constitution, not the precedent which had violated it for a hundred years, was the law of Grayson.

Italics are the author's, boldface, underlined and colored text is my emphasis.

As far as Divine order is concerned, the source you cite is at best incorrectly citing Ephesians 6:5-8. The very first result in a Google search for Ephesians 6:5-8, does not sugarcoat the actual words that Paul, not Jesus, said.

Jonathan_S wrote:I would argue that while the specific details of Honor's heavy grav adaptation weren't public knowledge all of Grayson knew that she was adapted to her heavy grav homeworld. And her hand to hand lethality and reflexes should have been no surprise to anyone who saw the widely broadcast tapes of the attempted assassination of Benjamin and his family.

The average Grayson would not know what being adapted to a heavy grav world truly means. Heck, Honor's own peers who knew her decades before the Graysons didn't know what it means and still don't. Burdette simply thought what was seen on HD is as a result of her martial arts training. Textev supports that. Burdette even commented that her hand to hand combat training was not going to help her here. He didn't have a clue what he was truly facing. Neither did any of Honor's victims.

Jonathan_S wrote:Burdette should have already know exactly what he was facing when he reached back for an archaic trial by combat ritual that hadn't been used in (IIRC) over a century. He was just betting that her rookie status at a sword would more than counterbalance any natural reaction advantage Honor might have. Plus of course it was all a Hail Mary desperation move since he was about to be seized, tried for his crimes, and executed.

How? How could he have been expected to know what he was truly facing when people in her own Star Kingdom didn't know?

Still, don't know.

Pavel Young essentially grew up with her and didn't have a single clue that trying to rape a genetically modified Sphinxian, when you're not similarly modified, is suicidal. A professional duelist in the Star Kingdom didn't have a clue either, and it was his business and profession to know.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if Honor had paused to announce that her mods and heavy grav upbringing made the attempt suicide I can't imagine Burdette withdrawing his challenge because his only other alternative was certain death. He's still going to take the chance because it's the only chance he has.

A point that has been made by my friends as well, more or less. And I agree. Except! Burdette may have chosen to use the low guard position instead of the high guard, thus opening himself up to be sliced from asshole to appetite.

BUT! You are still missing the most important consideration. It isn't all about Burdette, but the integrity of the Protector's Champion, thus the integrity of the Protector himself. And about the potential catalyst to cause a constitutional crisis down the road. As well as undermine the belief in the Church of Humanity Unchained.

Honor should have divulged her secret anyway, to remove a later cloud of doubt. To preserve the sanctity of the essence of the religious foundation of trust and integrity of the Church of Humanity Unchained. To respect all that is near and dear to the essence of Grayson. To protect the Protector and the integrity of the Protector's Champion. To remove any potential seeds of doubt that justice was righteously served. And to protect and cover her own ass.

At the very least she should have said "I'm going to remove Nimitz from the equation."

Jonathan_S wrote:I would argue that while the specific details of Honor's heavy grav adaptation weren't public knowledge all of Grayson knew that she was adapted to her heavy grav homeworld. And her hand to hand lethality and reflexes should have been no surprise to anyone who saw the widely broadcast tapes of the attempted assassination of Benjamin and his family.

Burdette should have already know exactly what he was facing when he reached back for an archaic trial by combat ritual that hadn't been used in (IIRC) over a century. He was just betting that her rookie status at a sword would more than counterbalance any natural reaction advantage Honor might have. Plus of course it was all a Hail Mary desperation move since he was about to be seized, tried for his crimes, and executed.

Even if Honor had paused to announce that her mods and heavy grav upbringing made the attempt suicide I can't imagine Burdette withdrawing his challenge because his only other alternative was certain death. He's still going to take the chance because it's the only chance he has.

I remember discussions in this forum when Flag in Exile was newer that, no matter what her metabolism and muscle structure was, Honor should not be able to do the things that she needed to do in the fight with her broken ribs.
As to whether Burdette needed to be warned, that is silly; he chose to fight the Protector's Champion as his way of defying the Protector, confident in his ability with the sword that she had only recently began to study. It was that or accept the Protector's right to judge him.

tlb wrote:I remember discussions in this forum when Flag in Exile was newer that, no matter what her metabolism and muscle structure was, Honor should not be able to do the things that she needed to do in the fight with her broken ribs.

I was skeptical of that as well. But, iinm, she was given quick heal. Also, I can't recall if her ribs were broken or simply fractured.

tlb wrote:As to whether Burdette needed to be warned, that is silly;

Then you must likewise condemn all sports organizations on their obsession against steroids as silly. But hey, none of the players who are steroid free would agree with you. Not simply because long standing records are in danger of being broken, but necks as well.

rlb wrote:he chose to fight the Protector's Champion as his way of defying the Protector,

A brainwashed Protector leading Grayson astray. He also chose to fight the Protector's champion as a way of saving himself from the ordered destruction of a brainwashed Protector who illegally issued the judgement in the first place, in order to silence Tester's voice. A Protector who is being led astray by an off world infidel.

tlb wrote: confident in his ability with the sword that she had only recently began to study. It was that or accept the Protector's right to judge him.

Of course he was confidant in his abilities. What's wrong with confidence? He was wrong because of the unfair use of a nondisclosed secret weapon that can hone in on the crease faster than an Apollo missile seeking a dialed-in wedge. Plus she is a mutant amongst normal humans. She illegally threw her genetic weight at Houseman, slapping a Crown envoy because she's a bully of an overstrung, out of control genetically altered lunatic suffering from the temper tantrums associated with steroids err genetic modification. As would be argued by a savvy attorney.

A Protector who was erroneously leading Grayson astray would have no right to judge him.

cthia wrote:A Protector who was erroneously leading Grayson astray would have no right to judge him.

As would have been proved if he had won. But he was convinced that he stood with God and God would be his shield against the godless; in so doing he put God to the test. Surprising that his holy book did not have an injunction against that.

Replies inline.

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:Cthia, I advise you to surrender to your friends and family on this issue. If you don't, you are going to lose, and not gracefully.

Ok, now you're sounding like one of my Romanian friends . . .

"We recommend you give up the goblin on this one."

A cute misquoted American idiom of "Give up the ghost." Albeit, close enough.

Vince wrote:In your arguments are you saying that the end justifies the means?

I've never been a proponent of "The ends justifies the means."

Vince wrote:That Burdette and Mueller were justified in conspiring in secret to murder innocent civilians that they were sworn to protect, including children, in order to discredit the Protector and Honor? That Burdette was justified in his actions that caused Reverend Hanks' death?

Burdette was trying to uphold his sworn obligation to protect the whole of Grayson as far as what he thought was transpiring.

Vince wrote:Burdette's sworn obligation was to the Constitution of Grayson, the Protector of Grayson and his Steading of Burdette, in that order. If he couldn't in good conscience accept Benjamin's reforms, he should have resigned his steadholdership. Instead he decided to conspire to murder innocents as well as Honor, as well as committing treason along the way. He even was told by Mueller of all people that they had reached the limit of what they could do legally to oppose the Church and the Protector*. He and Mueller made the decision to step beyond legal means to illegal, treasonous means, after deciding the ends justified the means.

* FiE, Chapter 13: 'Silence hovered in his wake until Burdette's third guest rose and carried Mackenzie's abandoned wineglass to the sideboard. The crystal click was loud in the stillness as he set it down, and Mueller looked back up at last.
"He's right, you know, William. We've done all we can legally."' William being William Fitzclarence, Steadholder Burdette.

Burdette did not conspire to kill children. He had no way of knowing the kids would be present. And they shouldn't have been there. I went a round or two with the author on that one. No supervisor in his right mind adhering to OSHA's rules and regulations would allow kids on an officially unfinished construction site! As a Civil Engineer, I stand firm on that one. Something simple - but just as deadly - can happen like a hammer being blown off scaffolding and plummeting several stories right on some kid's head. Or something even worse like the entire fricking site tumbling down on an entrie group of kids because of the avarice and greed of cutting corners.

Vince wrote:Skydomes was erecting the Mueller Middle School dome project. If, by some special miracle*, the dome had not collapsed during construction due to the deliberate sabotage of the dome by Burdette's and Mueller's henchmen at their direction*, it would have eventually collapsed while in use. The loss of life, especially of the children attending school, would have been tens to hundreds of times higher. All at the orders of the conspiracy of Burdette and Mueller. And both Burdette and Mueller knew that the dome was to cover a middle school, that by definition has children present when in use, and both Burdette and Mueller knew that children would eventually be present if the dome had been completed and been placed in service, and that the dome would eventually succumb to their sabotage of it.

* Adam Gerrick, chapter 22 of FiE: "So what happened, My Lady, is that approximately fourteen percent of the main load-bearing elements of the dome had been designed to fail, and the angle cut into the bottom of each hole actually threw the mass of those supports against the other elements of the dome. There was no way, My Lady, no way at all, that dome was going to stand with that kind of bugger factor built into it, and whoever did it knew exactly what was going to happen."

Vince wrote: That Honor should have been deliberately and willfully murdered at the direction of Burdette?

It would NOT have been murder! Legal dueling IS NOT murder. A few of you have bandied that one about. Don't think I don't notice that you fail to consider illegal dueling (the unfair use of a secret weapon) as murder.

Vince wrote:What secret weapon? There is no mention of Honor using any empathic abilities in the duel with Burdette. As for Honor's faster reaction speed, Burdette knew she was from Sphinx, just like Nimitz.

Vince wrote: And that because that Honor as Protector's Champion was a genie should excuse Burdette from the justice that he, and he alone, chose and demanded to face and receive?

If Burdette had justice coming, nothing should have excused him from receiving it. Likewise, nothing should excuse Honor from cheating in a duel. That was totally unlike her. She should have divilged her abilities since it made the contest NO CONTEST. Very unfair.

Burdette chose to initiate his rights under the spirit of the traditional rules of the duel. To face the Protector's Champion who is certainly expected to be chosen from a pool of Grayson citizens who are without modified genetic code making them essentially mutants. Secret mutants.

Vince wrote:Burdette chose to initiate his rights under the traditional rules of the duel. To escape the Protector's and his fellow Key's punishment and most of all, to face and strike down Honor Harrington, whom he knew was the Protector's Champion from the time of her investiture as Steadholder Harrington, due to her receiving the Star of Grayson for her defense of Grayson during 2nd Yeltsin.* As for secret mutants I realize you mean the widely known Grayson genetic mutation of heavy metal tolerance, which Honor lacked, to her disadvantage, while Burdette enjoyed the benefits of a super-secret genie/mutant with a widely know mutation on a planet that was rife with heavy metals.

* FiE, chapter 29: '"Wait!"
He lunged to his feet, and his bellow shook the Chamber. He saw Mayhew twitch at his sudden shout, but the bitch didn't even blink, and somehow that gave him fresh strength. There was a way, he told himself. There was still a way to destroy her and, in her destruction, prove he was God's champion.
For a moment he thought the oncoming armsmen would ignore his cry, but then the officer at their head looked at the Protector, and Mayhew raised a hand. He said nothing, simply stood waiting with contempt plain on his face, and Burdette descended to the Conclave floor. He brushed through the armsmen with cold disdain and threw the bitch a single hate-filled glare, then turned to face the Keys of Grayson.
"My Lords," he cried, "I do not dispute the facts this harlot claims, nor do I regret any of my acts! I say only that I neither desired nor ordered Reverend Hanks' death, and that no man can prove against me, for I never even knew he would be present. But yes—yes, My Lords!—I did each and every other thing this foreign-born whore claims, and I would do them again—do them a thousand times again!—before I let an infidel fornicator and this traitor who calls himself Protector pollute and poison a world sacred to God!"
He saw the other steadholders' shock as he admitted his guilt. No, as he proclaimed it and flung it in the bitch's face! And he understood their confusion, for they didn't know what he intended. A rush of power, the assurance that God was with him yet, filled him, and he wheeled to glare at Benjamin Mayhew.
"I reject your right to condemn me to death in order to silence God's voice of opposition to your corrupt abuse of power! As is my ancient right before God, the law, and this Conclave, I challenge your decree! Let your Champion stand forth and prove the true will of God sword-to-sword, in the ancient way of our fathers, and may God preserve the righteous!"
Exultation filled him as he saw Mayhew's astonishment, and he snarled in triumph, for he'd trapped the bastard in his own snare. If he would assume the ancient powers of the Protector, turn back the clock and exert his despotism, then he must accept the Protector's ancient limitations, as well, and his so-called "Champion" was the bitch on the Conclave floor. The harlot God had brought openly within reach of Burdette's own sword at last.
Echoes of consternation ran around the Chamber, and centuries of decorum were forgotten as a dozen steadholders shouted in protest. But Burdette ignored them and locked his triumphant eyes with Mayhew's. He knew the harlot had toyed with the sword since her own people had driven her to Grayson in disgrace, but she'd been here little more than a year and spent the last three months in space. No doubt what little she'd learned had slipped away through lack of practice, while he held the rank of Master Second. Like any other Grayson, he'd thought the sword's serious use a thing of the past, but now he understood at last the true reason God had inspired him to become its master.
It was for this moment. This single day, when he would master another Sword by striking down the Harlot of Satan before the eyes of every Grayson in the star system. And when she fell, when God's will was made evident to every eye, her death would also nullify Mayhew's sentence of death, for under the Protector's own precious Constitution, a steadholder's victory protected him forever from any aspect of the decree for which he'd cried challenge!'

Vince wrote: Even when Burdette knew that Honor had been injured and that gave him another potential advantage (beyond that of holding the rank of Master Second in the sword) in setting out to deliberately and willfully kill her in single combat?

Quite frankly, that wasn't Burdette's problem. It was the Protector's and his Champion's problem. If Honor's injuries were clearly going to affect her ability to fight, the Protector should have delayed the duel. If the rules of the contest forbade it, then the fault lie in the rules. Not with Burdette.

As far as Burdette being a Master Swordsman, the art is practiced on Grayson. Quite possibly in foresight?

Vince wrote:It was the Protector's and his Champion's problem. Honor dealt with the problem of her injuries, even though Benjamin was going to give in to Burdette solely because of Honor's injuries, by deliberately choosing to accept Burdette's challenge to the Protector's Justice--the duel.*

* FiE, chapter 29: 'Benjamin Mayhew gazed down at Burdette's triumphant face, and his heart was cold within him while he cursed his own stupidity. He should have considered this possibility, should have allowed for it, but no one had claimed challenge right in over three hundred years! It was a throwback to barbarism, but he should have expected it, for this man was a barbarian.
His right hand fisted at his side, and his eyes went bleak and cold. In that moment, he wanted nothing in the universe as much as he wanted William Fitzclarence dead on the Chamber floor. Yet whatever he wanted, he also knew Honor had slept for less than three hours in the fifty since her pinnace went down, that she had four broken ribs quick heal had only begun to repair, and that under her clothing she was covered with brutal bruises. She was running on adrenaline and stim tabs, and he had no idea how she could show so little sign of fatigue or physical pain as she stood proudly erect before the Keys, but he knew she was in no fit state to meet a man with Burdette's sword skill. Even if she'd been fresh and unhurt, she'd first touched even a practice blade barely a year before, while Burdette had advanced to the planetary quarterfinals no less than three times, and the rogue steadholder would never settle for first blood. He meant to kill her, and the odds were overwhelming that he could.
He could renounce his own decree, Benjamin thought, and in the renunciation accept his Champion's defeat without exposing Honor to Burdette's blade, but the entire population of Yeltsin's Star was watching. The blow to the Protectorship's power and prestige would be severe, and if the people of Grayson thought he'd surrendered because Honor was afraid to face Burdette—
But then he looked down at Honor, at her waiting eyes—calm and still, despite Burdette's challenge and her own pain—and knew he had no choice. Legally, it made no difference if the Protector accepted defeat or his Champion was slain. In either case, his decree was nullified, and Benjamin Mayhew had no right to ask this woman he owed so much to throw away her life on the threadbare chance that she might, somehow, defeat an opponent with thirty times her experience.
"My Lady, I know of your injuries," he said, and pitched his voice so that it carried to every ear and microphone. He was determined that everyone watching should know he'd surrendered only because of her injuries, and not because he'd ever doubted her courage. "I do not believe you are physically fit to accept this man's challenge in my defense, and so—"
Honor raised a hand, and shock stopped him in midsentence. No one ever interrupted the Protector of Grayson when he spoke from the throne! It was unheard of, but she seemed unaware of that. She simply gazed up at him, never even turning to glance at Burdette, and her cold, dispassionate soprano was as clear and carrying as his own voice had been.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled, or dead?"
Benjamin twitched in surprise too great to conceal and a gasp of disbelief went up from the steadholders, but her question had snatched any chance to avoid the challenge from his hands. It was her choice now, not his, and as he gazed down into her dark, almond eyes, he saw again the woman who'd saved his own family from assassination against impossible odds. For just one moment he prayed desperately that she could somehow work one more miracle for herself, for him, and for his world, and then he drew a deep breath.
"My Lady," the Protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this Chamber alive."
"As you will it, Your Grace." Honor bowed in formal salute and stepped up to her own desk. She lifted Nimitz from her shoulder, and he sat tall and still, ears flat but quiet, as she took the Grayson Sword of State from its padded brackets. That jeweled yet deadly weapon had been forged six hundred years before for the hand of Benjamin the Great, but it remained as lethal as of old, and its polished blade—marked with the ripple pattern of what Old Terra had called Damascus steel—flashed in her own hand as she stepped back down to face her enemy.
"My Lord," Lady Honor Harrington said coldly, "send for your sword—and may God preserve the righteous."'

Vince wrote: Even though every Grayson alive, including Burdette, is a genie with the heavy metals tolerance that Honor lacks?

Okay now you're simply being silly, or desperate. Or both. I admit to forgetting that technically the Graysons are Genies as well. A point of contention that my friends corrected. But even they conceded the silliness in comparing the two Genies. My take on that to them was this . . .

There is a point on the genetic line of tampering that the Beowulf Code warns should not be crossed. IMO, there is also a point on the safe side of the line - where although it is considered genetically safe to tamper with - departs from being a simple medical fix to becoming inhuman. Or rather, departs too much from being human to allow the result on the gridiron unless against similarly modified humans.

Vince wrote:Honor's genetic inheritance doesn't cross the line of the Beowulf code. Nor does it cross the point where it prevents her from competing on the Manticoran unarmed combat team mat--or for that matter, on the mattress in the bedroom since her genetic inheritance is compatible with 'normal' humans.

Vince wrote:Because in your aguments, of the questions that I have asked above, you are answering yes to each of them. And your friends and family realize it.

I'll trust that now you know that is nay.

Vince wrote:You need to follow your logic to the ultimate conclusion. You just haven't gotten there yet. When you do, you'll realize that you aren't saying nay to each of the questions I asked, but yay.

Vince wrote:As far as I can tell, the people of the Honorverse, including both Manticorans and Graysons, accept that God gave man free will to make choices, and accept responsibility for the results of those choices.

A most crucial fact that most non Christians just can't seem to get.

Vince wrote:Are you saying that Honor should not have the right to choose to face her Test that she had trained for in her duty as Protector's Champion?

That is absolutely NOT what I'm saying. Honor does have the right to face her Test. As People's Champion, she also has the responsibility. But she does NOT have the right to cheat. She does NOT have the right to use an unfair game changing secret weapon to definitively determine the outcome. She does not have the right to taint God's plan and soil the faith and trust of his judgements on his people. It reminds me of Moses' decision to smash the Ten Commandments. God did not authorize or approve of that and he showed his anger.

God doesn't need people to cheat for him. You are NOT representing God if you are cheating. God doesn't need to cheat you to beat you. Because of Honor's decision to use her abilities without divulging them, it unnecessarily tainted the results of the outcome and literally provides fuel for others to bring down God's house. And if her actions weren't downright murderous, they damn sure toed the line of. Or at least manslaughter. They were unarguably controversial. Controversy has destroyed many governments and Churches.

Vince wrote:Honor didn't cheat, or use any game changing secret weapon. She merely met Burdette with her inner strength.*

* FiE, chapter 29: 'Honor watched him with the eyes of a woman who'd trained in the martial arts for almost forty years, and the hard-learned, poised relaxation of all those years hummed softly within her. She felt her weariness, the pain of broken ribs, the ache in bruised muscles, the stiffness of her left shoulder, but then she commanded her body to ignore those things, and her body obeyed.
There were two terms Master Thomas had taught her in her first week of training. "The dominance" and "the crease," he'd called them. The "dominance" was the clash of wills, the war of personal confidence fought before the first blow was struck to establish who held psychological domination over the other. But the "crease" was something else, a reference to the tiny wrinkling of the forehead when the moment of decision came. Of course, "crease" was only a convenient label for an infinite set of permutations, he'd stressed, for every swordsman announced the commitment to attack in a different way. All fencers were taught to look for the crease, and competition fencers researched opponents exhaustively before a match, for though the signal might be subtle, it was also constant. Every swordsman had one; it was something he simply could not train completely out of himself. But because there were so very many possible creases, Master Thomas had explained while they sat cross-legged in sunlight on the salle floor, most swordmasters emphasized the dominance over the crease, for it was a simpler and a surer thing to defeat your opponent's will than to look for something one might or might not recognize even if one saw it.
But the true master of the sword, he'd said that quiet day, was she who had learned to rely not on her enemy's weakness, but upon her own strength. She who understood that the difference between the salle and what Honor faced today—between fencing, the art, and life or death by the sword—was always in the crease, not the dominance.
Honor knew she'd taken longer to grasp his meaning than someone with her background should have. But once she had, and after she'd studied the library information on Japan, she'd also realized why—on Grayson, as in the ancient islands of the samurai—a formal duel almost always both began and ended with a single stroke.

***Snip***

Honor waited, poised and still, centered physically and mentally, her eyes watching every part of his body without focusing on any. She felt his frustration, but it was as distant and unimportant as the ache of her broken ribs. She simply waited—and then, suddenly, she moved.
She never knew, then or later, what William Fitzclarence's "crease" was. She simply knew she'd recognized it. That something deep inside her saw the moment he committed himself, the instant his arms tightened to bring his blade slashing down.
The instant in which he was entirely focused on the attack, and not on defense.
Her body responded to that recognition with the trained reaction speed of someone born and bred at the bottom of a gravity well fifteen percent more powerful than her opponent's. Her blade flashed up in a blinding, backhand arc, and the Sword of State's razor-sharp spine opened Burdette's torso from right hip to left shoulder. Clothing and flesh parted like cobwebs, and she heard the start of his explosive cry as shock and pain froze his blade. But he never completed that scream, for even as it rose in his throat and he began to fold forward over his opened belly, her wrists turned easily, and she slashed back to her left in a flashing continuation of her original movement, backed by all the whip-crack power of her body, and William Fitzclarence's head leapt from his shoulders in a geyser of blood.'

Vince wrote:God works his will in the world through the choices that his followers make, no matter who they might be or what gifts he has given them.

God works his will thru Divine order. IOW, there is a method to God's "madness." Cheating and skirting the line of murder is not Divine order.

Vince wrote:See my post above regarding Divine order.

Remember that Justice is depicted as a blindfolded woman holding both a balance scale and a SWORD.

That's the symbol of man's justice. God's comparative symbol of justice would be holding the Book of Life in one hand and the Keys to Hell in the other.

Vince wrote:Burdette faced the Protector's Justice for his crimes, which is secular justice. It does have the ecclesiastical limitation on it where the accused can challenge it by combat, but it is not ecclesiastical justice. If the accused defeats the Protector's Champion the challenger is considered as being in the right by God--and then no longer subject to Protector's Justice for the offenses accused of.

Vince wrote:Would you excuse Burdette, a murderer, from facing true Justice and Judgement?

I would excuse no murderer for facing true justice. But justice as it were is not true. And Honor's withholding of her abilities should not be accepted, by Tester or the Graysons. She unnecessarily tainted the results potentially undermining God's will and/or the integrity of the Graysons and quite possibly and certainly more importantly Grayson's faith in Tester.

Vince wrote:Honor was accepted as Steadholder Harrington, and as Protector's Champion by the Keys at her investiture, having provided to the Keys and the Church of Humanity Unchained her two reservations, which were accepted by both. As for her abilities, those were demonstrated to all Graysons by the video of her and Nimitz thwarting the assassination of Protector Benjamin and his family that was played nonstop on the planetary nets immediately after it was finally ended.

Vince wrote:Again, that is what you are saying. And your friends and family realize it.

No.

Vince wrote:This is what you think you are saying.

This is what I am saying . . .

There was no need for Honor to give future ammunition to the Opposition by not divulging her secret. Would you want to be told by the head of your government if you were going into a traditional state sanctioned battle with another human who is essentially a mutant? Would you feel you had a right to know if said head of government knew? Would you feel you had a right to know if said head of government knew PLUS claims to be righteous AND PROTECTOR? If Burdette was your child under these circumstances would you not feel he was murdered? But let's bracket all of that for now.

What many of you are missing is the separation of Church and State. You are missing the religious argument that Burdette stood on. All of your arguments are from a secular mindset. A true judge has the responsibility to fairly weigh the preponderance of evidence from the viewpoint of both sides. Even determining when certain evidence should not be allowed and summarily dismissed. Like whether the outcome of the duel should definitively represent the true intent of God's judgment.

Vince wrote:You need to brush up on the separation of Church and State as it exists on Grayson.*

* FiE, chapter 16: 'The Sword had regained its keenness, and there was nothing—legally—the Keys could do about it. At one time, Grayson's Church and civil law had been identical, with the Sacristy as the planetary High Court. But the same carnage which had produced the Constitution had taught the Church a painful lesson in the consequences of religious interference in secular matters. Grayson law still enshrined the theocratic tenets which had always infused it, but for six centuries, sitting judges had been legally barred from Church office. A distinctly secular element had crept into the law as a result, but the Church still trained the planet's jurists. And it also retained the right to approve appointments to the High Court, which, among other things, exercised judicial review of constitutional matters.'

Try to grasp this. Burdette and his compatriots really felt that the Protector is leading Grayson astray. What you are failing to consider is that Burdette just may be right. As readers, even we don't know that he isn't. If he is right then he was trying to do the right thing by the Doctrine of his Test. Albeit, quite possibly going about it wrongly or at least certainly making a few wrong turns by the hands of imperfect humans. Although, in the war against powers and principalities, people are going to lose their lives, their minds and their souls.

Vince wrote:Burdette and his compatriots should have confined their actions to those they could legally do. If they still couldn't accept the decision they could have resigned their offices on Grayson and emigrated. The actions they took were not only illegal, but rose to the level of treason because they did not resign their offices on Grayson and betrayed their oaths to Grayson.

We don't know that Burdette isn't ultimately right that the path they now travel will hurt Grayson's religious beliefs, and much more, in the long run. We'd have to watch Grayson for several centuries to know for sure. How will allowing itself to be infiltrated by infidels in high positions of power affect their way of life and what is near and dear to their souls. Grayson's most prized possessions are not measured in weight of metal, advancements in medicine, alliances with navies or the almighty credit. It is their faith.

Vince wrote:I have full faith in Grayson to meet their Test.

FiE, chapter 5: '"Perhaps you should finish your citation, Sir," she said to Marchant, and her prosthetic eye showed her the shock on his face. "I believe," she continued calmly and clearly, "that Saint Austin ended that passage with 'Shut not your minds to the new because the chains of the past bind you tight, for it is those who cling most desperately to the old who will turn you from the New Way and lead you once more into the paths of the unclean.' "

***Snip***

"I think not, Sir." Honor allowed an edge of ice into her own voice as she met the clergyman's glare and chose another passage from The New Way. " 'Fathers, do not close your minds to the words of your children, for they are less fixed in the old ways. Nor should there be strife between a man and his wives. Love them and heed their council. We are all the Sons and Daughters of God, Who created us Man and Woman that we might comfort and aid one another, and a day will come when Man will need Woman's strength as well as his own.' "'

FiE, chapter 8: '"Today's scripture," he said quietly, "is taken from Meditations Six, chapter three, verses nineteen through twenty-two, of The New Way." He cleared his throat, then recited the passage from memory without glancing at the book before him. " 'We shall be known both by our works and by the words of our mouths, which are the echoes of our thoughts. Let us therefore speak the truth always, fearing not to show forth our inner selves. But let us also forget not charity, nor that all people are God's children, even as we. No man is without error; therefore let him not assail his brother or sister with intemperate words, but reason with them, remembering always that whatever our words may show forth, God knows the thought behind them. Think not to deceive Him or to preach divisiveness or hatred cloaked in His word, for all who are clean of spirit—yea, even those who remain strangers to the New Way—are His children, and he who seeks with malice or hatred to wound any child of God is the servant of corruption and abhorrent in the eyes of He Who is Father to us all.' "'

Frankly, I think Mueller and Burdette have a legitimate case against the decisions of Protector Benjamin. Benjamin unfairly used Honor as a springboard and fulcrum for his own ends -- putting Honor squarely in the middle of his problems with certain attitudes of the Keys. He admitted as much. To do that was morally wrong to do to the Keys as well as Honor. Honor saved the planet and the Graysons were thankful. But there was no need to make her a Key and the Protector's Champion. It is going too far to put her in the middle of domestic matters between Church and State. Then making matters worse when the State intervened in matters of the Church by the use of deception. The deception of withholding the fact that your champion is essentially a mutant and the fact that going up against that mutant is literally suicide if you know what you are facing. Murder if you don't.

Vince wrote:The State did not intervene in the matters of the Church. Murder, manslaughter, conspiracy and treason fall under the province of the State as Protector's Justice when the guilty party shelters behind the Key of a Steadholder. And the State, as Protector Benjamin, was still bound by the limitations of Protector's Justice--the right of the accused to challenge the Protector's Champion. As whether Honor should have been made a Steadholder or not, that is just your opinion. Benjamin asked her--to be both a Steadholder and a role model--and she accepted. Nor was she put in the middle of domestic matters between Church and State, just the State--specifically the differences between the Keys--although some of the Keys attempted to use religion as a weapon against her.

Benjamin made too many changes too quickly. And although it'll floor me if anyone admits it (only two of my friends do) Benjamin's decisions weren't exactly altruistic. He saw an opportunity to use Honor's accomplishments to sway the balance of power between him and the Keys. Effectively eliminating checks and balances and brandishing himself with the power of a dictator. He showed himself as an opportunist and outright used Honor in that endeavor. And he admitted it. Honor expressed concerns about his decisions on many occasions.

Vince wrote:No, Benjamin's decisions weren't completely altruistic. But they were necessary for Grayson to survive. The Mayhew Restoration was about restoring the written Constitution and curbing the excessive illegal power of the Keys--among other things, their propensity to assassinate or imprison Protectors--not to abolish checks and balances but to restore them to the Protector under the written Constitution--that was never amended to allow the Keys to illegally run roughshod over the Constitution, the Protector and the Conclave of Steaders (Grayson's lower legislative house--the upper house being the Conclave of Steadholders).

Making Honor a Key gives a woman the power of a man. An offworlder and an infidel at that. We as readers and non Graysons see nothing wrong with that. And there isn't by our yardsticks. But these are Graysons with vastly different beliefs rooted in religion. In fact, at the root of one of Mueller and companies biggest objections is still argued right here on present day Earth today . .

"Should a woman be allowed in the pulpit?"

Grayson, as a people, was doing just fine without the Manticorans. They just needed their help to save them from the Masadans and they owed them for it. However, to reflect the essence of Mueller and company's sentiment, they didn't owe them their souls. That is too high a price to pay.

As infidel outsiders looking in, we cannot say how the Protector's Restoration will ultimately affect Grayson several centuries down the road.

Vince wrote:The Church of Humanity Unchained teaches that God always has something new for man to learn.* That each individual has to meet their Test.

* FiE, chapter 8: '"Brothers and Sisters," Hanks said after a moment, "four days ago, in this city, a man of God forgot the duty laid upon us by this passage. Filled with his own anger, he forgot to assail not his brothers and sisters and that all of us were created the children of God. He chose not to reason, but to attack, and he forgot that Saint Austin himself tells us that men—and women—may be godly even if they know Him in a way different from our own. Remembering that can be difficult for anyone filled with the Faith, for we know our own way to God, and unlike God, we are neither infinite nor omniscient. We forget, all too easily, that there are other ways. Nor do we always remember how limited our perceptions are compared to His, and that He, unlike us, sees to the hearts of all people and knows His own, however strange and different they may appear to us."
The Reverend paused once more, lips pursed as if in thought, then nodded slowly.
"Yes, it's difficult not to equate 'different' with 'wrong.' Difficult for any of us. But we who have felt God's call to serve Him as His clergy have a special responsibility. We, too, are fallible. We, too, can—and do—make mistakes, even with the best of intentions. We turn to Him in prayer and meditation, yet there are times when our fears can become intolerance, even hatred, for even in the stillness of prayer, we may mistake our own distrust of the new or different for God's.
"And that, Brothers and Sisters, is precisely what happened in your city. A priest of Father Church looked into his heart and took council not of God, but of his own fears. His own hatred. He saw changes about him which he feared, which challenged his own preconceptions and prejudices, and he mistook his fear of those changes for the voice of God and let that fear lead him into the service of corruption. In his own hatred, he closed his mind to the most fundamental of all Saint Austin's teachings: that God is greater than the mind of Man can comprehend, and that the New Way has no end. That there will always be more of God and His will for us to learn. We must test any new lesson against the truths God has already taught us, yet we must test it, not simply say 'No! This is strange to me, and therefore against the law of God!'
"Brother Marchant," Hanks said quietly, and a soft sigh went up as he spoke the name at last, "looked upon the immense changes our world faces, and those changes frightened him. I can understand that, for change is always frightening. But as Saint Austin also said, 'A little change from time to time is God's way of reminding us we have not yet learned everything,' Brothers and Sisters. Brother Marchant forgot that, and in his fear he set up his own will and judgment as those of God. He sought not to test the changes, but to forbid them without test, and when he was unable to forbid them, he fell into still more dangerous sin. The sin of hate. And that hate led him to attack a good and godly woman, one who showed forth her thoughts by her works four years past, when she confronted armed assassins with her bare hands to defend our Protector against murder. When she placed herself between our entire world and its destruction. She is not of the Faith, yet no one in the history of Grayson has more valiantly defended it or our people from those who would destroy us."
Honor's cheeks burned brilliant scarlet, but a vast, soft rumble endorsed Reverend Hanks' words, and its sincerity suffused her link to Nimitz.
"Your Steadholder, Brothers and Sisters, is a woman, which is new and strange to us. She is foreign born, which is also strange to us. She was raised in a Faith which is not ours, and she has not changed that Faith to embrace Father Church. For all those reasons, she seems a threat to some of us, yet how much more of a threat is it to forget the Test? To turn away from change simply because it is change, without first considering if, perhaps, this foreign-born woman might not be God's way of telling us change is required? Shall we ask her to pretend to embrace Father Church? To pervert her own Faith to deceive us into accepting her? Or shall we respect her for refusing to pretend? For revealing to us what she truly is and thinks and feels?"'

Can anyone understand the relevance of Star Trek's Prime Directive on this argument of technology and foreign mindsets interacting with the natural development of a society and its beliefs?

Vince wrote:I don't think the Star Trek Prime Directive applies to the situation the Graysons found themselves in--completely leaving aside the different universes. Grayson was caught between 3 sides--the Peoples Republic of Haven, the Star Kindgom of Manticore, and Masada--and had to make a choice between them, or else the choice would be made for them by outsiders, without giving the Graysons any say in what they could choose.