When did Honor become the MVP?

Dauntless wrote:

cthia wrote:She took such a beating at the hands of that Q-ship and still some how managed to hold herself together that I kept asking myself whether a ship actually gets better with age. Or are some platforms simply tougher by design. If an old obsolete platform performed like that, then what would a newly minted fresh off the press version - with that new bulkheads smell - have done to that Q-ship? What would even the raped Fearless have managed if she had her full-up armaments, for that matter.

according to House of Steel an unmodifed courages class CL had a 7 tube broadside, the magazines would also have been deeper then what Honor had as they were downsized to help squeeze in the energy torps.

so at the very least 3 times the missile throw weight per volley, more laserheads in the deeper magazines making the odds of having to use contact nukes much, much lower. Sirus struggled to fend off 2 missile volleys, 3 times as many missiles coming in? that would have vastly increased the chances of scoring a crippling hit long before Fearless took half the damage she did

Also, a Courageous CL can do the classic broadside spin with delayed missile starts for a 14 missile salvo. Doing a zig-zag to aim broadsides would have lowered the overtake speed, but a true CL would have wanted to keep the range open combating a BC+ combatant.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:She took such a beating at the hands of that Q-ship and still some how managed to hold herself together that I kept asking myself whether a ship actually gets better with age. Or are some platforms simply tougher by design. If an old obsolete platform performed like that, then what would a newly minted fresh off the press version - with that new bulkheads smell - have done to that Q-ship? What would even the raped Fearless have managed if she had her full-up armaments, for that matter.

Dauntless wrote:according to House of Steel an unmodifed courages class CL had a 7 tube broadside, the magazines would also have been deeper then what Honor had as they were downsized to help squeeze in the energy torps.

so at the very least 3 times the missile throw weight per volley, more laserheads in the deeper magazines making the odds of having to use contact nukes much, much lower. Sirus struggled to fend off 2 missile volleys, 3 times as many missiles coming in? that would have vastly increased the chances of scoring a crippling hit long before Fearless took half the damage she did

Also, a Courageous CL can do the classic broadside spin with delayed missile starts for a 14 missile salvo. Doing a zig-zag to aim broadsides would have lowered the overtake speed, but a true CL would have wanted to keep the range open combating a BC+ combatant.

I recall someone reminding us in another thread that if the Q-ship had been under the command of Alfredo Yu, it would have made everything else a moot point. How moot a point? Even with Harrington Commanding a brand new CL with full up armaments?

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Also, a Courageous CL can do the classic broadside spin with delayed missile starts for a 14 missile salvo. Doing a zig-zag to aim broadsides would have lowered the overtake speed, but a true CL would have wanted to keep the range open combating a BC+ combatant.

I recall someone reminding us in another thread that if the Q-ship had been under the command of Alfredo Yu, it would have made everything else a moot point. How moot a point? Even with Harrington Commanding a brand new CL with full up armaments?

If Yu was commanding, once he realized how tough a target he had, he quickly would have turned to open his broadsides and unleashed his broadside salvos which were 20 missiles. There is no way the Fearless could have fended off 20 missiles in each salvo, repeatedly, with only 3 CMs and 3 PDLCs in each broadside (and 2 of each in the hammerhead.) If he had done a delay on a salvo and sent in 40 at once (even though some were not under ship control), it would have completely swamped the Fearless's defenses. With his DEEP magazines (>6000 missiles), he could afford to do this repeatedly.

cthia wrote:She took such a beating at the hands of that Q-ship and still some how managed to hold herself together that I kept asking myself whether a ship actually gets better with age. Or are some platforms simply tougher by design. If an old obsolete platform performed like that, then what would a newly minted fresh off the press version - with that new bulkheads smell - have done to that Q-ship? What would even the raped Fearless have managed if she had her full-up armaments, for that matter.

It depends on the ship, the beating and what they do with it. For Fearless, being what was probably considered an obsolete ship not up to a tour in Silesia, being used for a test-bed on TWTSNBN was a way to provide a hyper-capable warship for the test, probably of the minimum size (and power generation) needed. You have two basic alternatives for outfitting a ship to test weapons. One is build new with a design optimized for the weapon(s) and systems needed to support them and the other is to modify an existing ship. Doing it with modifications lets you skip the whole build it from scratch part which should save time. It also lets you see if you can use the weapon(s) on an other existing class of ships if it works and can be effective (not the same thing) so you can upgrade other existing ships.

In this case, TWTSNBN had a number of flaws. The only reason Fearless ended up at Basilisk is to get Harrington out of sight. Honor did exactly what she was supposed to in the war-games, but this was something that could only be used effectively if the opponent didn't know it was available. The commander of the Sirus had no idea what the Fearless had or did not have for weapons beyond what the RHN files on the class said and probably should have just tried to swat her with his missle capabilities as soon as it was apparent that she was going to keep coming after the initial exchange of fire. His cover as a Q-ship was blown, why prolong the engagement if he can swamp her missle defense and get safely away.

Not quite the same thing would be USS Laffey DD-724. Hammered by Kamakaze attacks- 6 actualy hit her and there were 4 bomb hits- off Okinawa, the ship had major damage. Given temporary repairs, she made it back to Tacoma, WA and rebuilt. She went into commission in 1944 so she was essentialy a new ship with all the current upgrades when she was damaged. She was fully repaired and saw combat in the Korean War.Was later retrofitted for experimentation and testing with various new gear. Decommissioned in 1975 she is now at Patriot's Point in at Charleston, SC as a museum ship.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Also, a Courageous CL can do the classic broadside spin with delayed missile starts for a 14 missile salvo. Doing a zig-zag to aim broadsides would have lowered the overtake speed, but a true CL would have wanted to keep the range open combating a BC+ combatant.

I recall someone reminding us in another thread that if the Q-ship had been under the command of Alfredo Yu, it would have made everything else a moot point. How moot a point? Even with Harrington Commanding a brand new CL with full up armaments?

Theemile wrote:If Yu was commanding, once he realized how tough a target he had, he quickly would have turned to open his broadsides and unleashed his broadside salvos which were 20 missiles. There is no way the Fearless could have fended off 20 missiles in each salvo, repeatedly, with only 3 CMs and 3 PDLCs in each broadside (and 2 of each in the hammerhead.) If he had done a delay on a salvo and sent in 40 at once (even though some were not under ship control), it would have completely swamped the Fearless's defenses. With his DEEP magazines (>6000 missiles), he could afford to do this repeatedly.

What I don't understand is considering the weight of opinion of everyone in the forum having no doubt at all that Honor would have been fatally outmatched against Sirius even if Fearless was brand spanking new, fully loaded and undamaged, makes me wonder what the hell Honor was thinking. Plus, Fearless was already wounded even before she began chasing Sirius like a baseborn bitch-out-o-hell, iinm.

But, if Honor had no chance against a Q-ship even if her command was in mint condish, how was her decision to give chase not simply suicidal but irresponsible? How was that insane decision of hers - which surely had to cause some of her crew to wet their pants - any different than Elvis Santino's? Honor had no way of knowing whether Sirius' captain would get himself and Sirius back on balance.

Murphy was on her side this time, but Honor could have lost everything for naught. I just never thought that particular death ride was worth it.

Brigade XO wrote:

cthia wrote:She took such a beating at the hands of that Q-ship and still some how managed to hold herself together that I kept asking myself whether a ship actually gets better with age. Or are some platforms simply tougher by design. If an old obsolete platform performed like that, then what would a newly minted fresh off the press version - with that new bulkheads smell - have done to that Q-ship? What would even the raped Fearless have managed if she had her full-up armaments, for that matter.

It depends on the ship, the beating and what they do with it. For Fearless, being what was probably considered an obsolete ship not up to a tour in Silesia, being used for a test-bed on TWTSNBN was a way to provide a hyper-capable warship for the test, probably of the minimum size (and power generation) needed. You have two basic alternatives for outfitting a ship to test weapons. One is build new with a design optimized for the weapon(s) and systems needed to support them and the other is to modify an existing ship. Doing it with modifications lets you skip the whole build it from scratch part which should save time. It also lets you see if you can use the weapon(s) on an other existing class of ships if it works and can be effective (not the same thing) so you can upgrade other existing ships.

<snip>

Let's not forget that TWTSNBF was not a new device, placing it in a small ship was a new tactical concept the Fearless was supposed to test. It was already on several classes of SD, DNs, and BCs, where there was extra space for a little used weapon system, for those few moments where ships got to knife-fighting range.

David mentioned that the actual idea was a special built heavy cruiser class, designed to be capital ship assassins, yet still capable of holding off another CA. Unfortunately, the Fearless was the only ship which was available and had the basic specs when they decided to make the conversion. It was never intended for the Fearless to be a fleet vessel after the testing was over, and posting it to anyplace but Basilisk or home fleet probably would have raised red flags.

Citha wrote: What I don't understand is considering the weight of opinion of everyone in the forum having no doubt at all that Honor would have been fatally outmatched against Sirius even if Fearless was brand spanking new, fully loaded and undamaged, makes me wonder what the hell Honor was thinking. Plus, Fearless was already wounded even before she began chasing Sirius like a baseborn bitch-out-o-hell, iinm.

But, if Honor had no chance against a Q-ship even if her command was in mint condish, how was her decision to give chase not simply suicidal but irresponsible? How was that insane decision of hers - which surely had to cause some of her crew to wet their pants - any different than Elvis Santino's? Honor had no way of knowing whether Sirius' captain would get himself and Sirius back on balance.

Murphy was on her side this time, but Honor could have lost everything for naught. I just never thought that particular death ride was worth it.

others will answer this better but I'd say it comes down to 2 things.


1) Honor and the RMN had no idea how heavily armed the Q-ship was. they had some rough ides based on a smaller ship but that was very vague info gleaned from people who had fled peep conquests. it was not info from a now conquered Navy ship, or even a freighter, so it was a best guess with no real confidence in it.

2) Santio was trying to defend seaford, a system which was nothing to the SKM at this point beyond a drain on ships and had some prestige as the "first" captured system of the war.

Honor was trying to protect Basilisk which was an actual part of the SKM, had a WH termani which could be used as a dagger at the Home system's safety much like Trevors Star, had a thriving economic hub (if much smaller then the one that was trashed a decade later) and a pre flight alien culture that the SKM was pledged to defend and help grow.

Honor was trying to stop an imminent invasion or so she thought, Santino just didn't want to admit he hadn't bothered reading his predecessors standing orders and be blamed for losing seaford, thinking it would ruin his career not realising the system was worthless and that the admiralty (well the one or two who had a few brain cells) knew this.

Dauntless wrote:

Citha wrote: What I don't understand is considering the weight of opinion of everyone in the forum having no doubt at all that Honor would have been fatally outmatched against Sirius even if Fearless was brand spanking new, fully loaded and undamaged, makes me wonder what the hell Honor was thinking. Plus, Fearless was already wounded even before she began chasing Sirius like a baseborn bitch-out-o-hell, iinm.

But, if Honor had no chance against a Q-ship even if her command was in mint condish, how was her decision to give chase not simply suicidal but irresponsible? How was that insane decision of hers - which surely had to cause some of her crew to wet their pants - any different than Elvis Santino's? Honor had no way of knowing whether Sirius' captain would get himself and Sirius back on balance.

Murphy was on her side this time, but Honor could have lost everything for naught. I just never thought that particular death ride was worth it.

others will answer this better but I'd say it comes down to 2 things.


1) Honor and the RMN had no idea how heavily armed the Q-ship was. they had some rough ides based on a smaller ship but that was very vague info gleaned from people who had fled peep conquests. it was not info from a now conquered Navy ship, or even a freighter, so it was a best guess with no real confidence in it.

2) Santio was trying to defend seaford, a system which was nothing to the SKM at this point beyond a drain on ships and had some prestige as the "first" captured system of the war.

Honor was trying to protect Basilisk which was an actual part of the SKM, had a WH termani which could be used as a dagger at the Home system's safety much like Trevors Star, had a thriving economic hub (if much smaller then the one that was trashed a decade later) and a pre flight alien culture that the SKM was pledged to defend and help grow.

Honor was trying to stop an imminent invasion or so she thought, Santino just didn't want to admit he hadn't bothered reading his predecessors standing orders and be blamed for losing seaford, thinking it would ruin his career not realising the system was worthless and that the admiralty (well the one or two who had a few brain cells) knew this.

Seaford was worth more to the Havenites as a forward repair base in the RMN backwater, than to the RMN as another base that didn't protect anything in an area with other RMN bases.

Santino, when faced with a parity or superior enemy should have simple retreated and blasted the base with contact nukes, removing it from play completely, simplifying the RMN defenses, and denying the PRN a base in the area. Simply denying it to the PRN was a win, but his pride and idiocy got in the way.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor becomes MVP

The very latest it would be is the return from the dead in Echoes of Honor; perhaps the earliest is The Short Victorious War. I thought it might be Honor Among Enemies when she wins over Klaus Hauptman, after he gets her back on active duty with the help of the Liberals and Conservatives (who hoped she would die out there). But there is a thought expressed early in HAE that it might really be is during Flag in Exile:

More than that, she'd actually saved the system a second time early last year. Whatever the House of Lords might think, the newsfaxes' accounts of the Fourth Battle of Yeltsin had made her almost as much a hero to the Star Kingdom's population as she was on Grayson itself. If the Cromarty Government ever felt confident enough of its majority in the Lords to try bringing her back into Manticoran uniform, Hauptman felt certain the attempt would succeed.

So that is my final guess.

Excellent post! I can see why you choose to rest your defense.

Brigade XO wrote:

cthia wrote:She took such a beating at the hands of that Q-ship and still some how managed to hold herself together that I kept asking myself whether a ship actually gets better with age. Or are some platforms simply tougher by design. If an old obsolete platform performed like that, then what would a newly minted fresh off the press version - with that new bulkheads smell - have done to that Q-ship? What would even the raped Fearless have managed if she had her full-up armaments, for that matter.

It depends on the ship, the beating and what they do with it. For Fearless, being what was probably considered an obsolete ship not up to a tour in Silesia, being used for a test-bed on TWTSNBN was a way to provide a hyper-capable warship for the test, probably of the minimum size (and power generation) needed. You have two basic alternatives for outfitting a ship to test weapons. One is build new with a design optimized for the weapon(s) and systems needed to support them and the other is to modify an existing ship. Doing it with modifications lets you skip the whole build it from scratch part which should save time. It also lets you see if you can use the weapon(s) on an other existing class of ships if it works and can be effective (not the same thing) so you can upgrade other existing ships.

<snip>

Theemile wrote:Let's not forget that TWTSNBF was not a new device, placing it in a small ship was a new tactical concept the Fearless was supposed to test. It was already on several classes of SD, DNs, and BCs, where there was extra space for a little used weapon system, for those few moments where ships got to knife-fighting range.

David mentioned that the actual idea was a special built heavy cruiser class, designed to be capital ship assassins, yet still capable of holding off another CA. Unfortunately, the Fearless was the only ship which was available and had the basic specs when they decided to make the conversion. It was never intended for the Fearless to be a fleet vessel after the testing was over, and posting it to anyplace but Basilisk or home fleet probably would have raised red flags.

Excellent post Theemile! Now I understand the tactical concept. It was something I wanted to know but was afraid to ask. This subject is more volatile than mixing nitroglycerin with handwavium.

There's nothing wrong with establishing that CLs have no business entering energy range of an SD as doctrine, but if shit happens to find you in that position anyway, you want TWTHNN to survive.

In that light, seems the TWTSNBN got a bum rap from inefficient design.

Let the Graysons have a L☉☉K-See